Friday, March 23, 2007

Psych Testing

Perhaps those with more knowledge of psychiatry and psych testing can fill us in with details regarding of the purpose of the test being proposed for all Eclipse pilots.

According to reports, it will be the same as administered to United Airline Pilots.

A test like this makes sense for United pilots. The company is looking for homogeneity so that any line captain can fly with any first officer on any day of the week. Each will know their duty; none will have an excess of testosterone that would lead to tension in the cockpit, especially on a dark stormy night when the airport is just above minimums and the instrument panel TV displays are showing more flags then what can be seen at a parade on Independence Day.

But alas, owner/pilots don't fit this mold. If a person has $10-15 million of loose change jingling in their pocket and wants to purchase a little jet, it is not likely these individuals are going to fit the mold of homogeneity. Assuming most are guys (apologies to the gal exceptions), I would expect test results would show them to be true alpha-males, the leaders of their packs.


If one flunks the psych test, does a personality re-adjustment program become mandatory?

Or what about this scenario where readers of the blog can complete the ending of the following for themselves:

An owner/pilot is taking his psych test in Denver. He comes to this question, "You are in a not so crowded elevator when another male brushes up against you, how do you feel?

Owner/pilot alpha-male grabs his cell phone and calls ABQ, "Hey Vern, let me tell you how I feel, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ."

134 comments:

Ken Meyer said...

You don't actually "pass" or "fail" a Myers-Briggs test. It's a profile, intended to help the pilot understand how he approaches various situations.

It has been used in aviation before. Here are a couple of studies showing the kind of thing that has been done with it previously in the aviation world:

Flight Instructor-Student Pilot Perceptive Similarity and Its Effect on Flight Training Time

A study on the student pilot's mental workload due to personality types of both instructor and student

AU MODEL MAY IMPROVE SECURITY OF COMMERCIAL FLIGHT TRAINING

I don't actually ascribe much to a psychoanalytical element in aviation, but some people obviously do. The FAA actually offers a course on the Myers-Briggs assessment, and the test has been used to analyze applicants for ATC positions, where they found, interestingly enough, that controllers are different :)

Ken

EclipseOwner387 said...

Stan,

I have used these tests for hiring employees over the years. It helps me better understand how to communicate with them and what their natural tendencies are. If a pilot shows a lack of attention to detail then the instructor could focus on that tendency and HELP the pilot see how to overcome it. This should help pilots be better pilots. Is it overkill - maybe. But it is an interesting way to get a snapshot of the natural personality traits of an individual you are about to train and should give the instructors a jump start. Is this how Eclipse plans on using the testing? I can't answer that but if it is - it sounds like a good idea to me.

For example, the test will probably show that Ken has a tendency to have blind faith and trust. The intructors will then be able to coach him to not just blindly follow ATC directives if it will crash him into a mountain.

Just kidding Ken! Hope it made you laugh!

cherokee driver said...

The problem is, every requirement the FAA approves for this program sets a precedent for future programs and before you know it, you won't qualify to fly anything. If you guys want a psych test every time you get a medical and a monthly flight review, have at it. Personally, I find the current regs more than adequate. Will the current regs prevent every accident? Of course not, but Eclipse's requirements won't either. These requirements give the FAA and the insurance companies more ammo to prevent you or your children from flying some day. Is that what you want?

Nerdy Engineer said...

I think the MBTI requirement is quite simple. Eclipse' association with the programs and methods of an established company is an attempt to gain credibility. The efficacy of the method is irrelevant. The association is the important part. They've made many claims about how the 500 is just like an airliner (esp. safety & reliability). This adds to the legitimacy of Eclipse being called an "airliner".

Regardless, here's some interesting reading about the MBTI. It look like Ken and I agree about one more thing.

Measuring the MBTI

Barnum Effect

Gunner said...

Cherokee Driver-
Right on target. Ask anyone involved in the battle to keep the Second Amendment alive (or the 4th or 5th).

So far we've been blessed with a Lobby that has held the FAA to a fairly useful bureaucracy. But it's still a Bureaucracy with a life of its own. Give any Bureaucracy enough press and ammunition and I give you the Department of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. It ain't pretty.

You hit the nail on the head.

Gunner

Vmc said...

The Myers-Briggs personality type indicator test is designed to help understand what makes a person "tick". To effectively train anyone, a little information about how they function in daily life outside of the cockpit is very useful. It helps the instructors and it helps the student--no harm comes from learning how to more effectively communicate with differing personality types. Take for instance the communication problems we have seen in this blog. A personality test would give us a "behind-the-scenes" snapshot of Ken, EB, Gunner, Goat, Slipperyfish and others, that help us understand a little more of their view of the world. This is the kind of info that normally takes years to learn about someone through normal interaction. The personality test cuts through the BS and highlights those areas of interest in a matter of a few hours. Not a bad thing to utilize as part of a training curriculum.

My $.02

Vmc

Gunner said...

vmc-
I don't know that anyone is arguing that it's not "useful". I certainly am not. We're concerned about it being mandatory. That done, why not expand its use to all licenses and renewals? Then why not expand the testing, too? It goes without saying that flying an aircraft is a Privilege, not a Right. When the Bureaucracies come to treat it in that manner, however, we're in trouble.

As Nerdy Engineer pointed out, this test is considered by many experts to be little more than the "I'm OK, You're OK" school of personality assessment.
Gunner

EclipseOwner387 said...

It is interesting that many on the Blog will criticize Eclipse for making jets for the lower time pilot to move up and potentially decrease safety. But if Eclipse tries to make strict standards for safe training, then Eclipse is wrong there too. Doesn't this pose a contradiction that points towards a blog that only wants to find fault even though everyone "claims" they hope Eclipse succeeds. Don't you think Cirrus wishes they would have thought to have stricter training standards so as to head off the heat they are taking for having "unsafe" airplanes? It became apparent after the fact that the new "toys" maybe give a false sense of safety and now the insurance companies have different standards for Cirrus. Is it possible the insurance companies advised Eclipse to be this comprehensive?

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

I do agree though that I would not want to see more regulation on training as a blanket to GA. However, if a company wants to impose strict standards to reduce risk, then it is their call. The consumer will decide if it is too onerous or not with his or her feet. But additional regs from FAA for training in general - no I am not interested.

Ken Meyer said...

EO387 wrote,
"Doesn't this pose a contradiction that points towards a blog that only wants to find fault even though everyone "claims" they hope Eclipse succeeds."


Indeed it does.

Ken

Gunner said...

EO-
We're on the same page, then.

I guess I'm confused. Is the Myers-Briggs test only mandated by Eclipse as part of the Training Program or is it also now an FAA Requirement to fly the jet?

If just Eclipse, I've no problem though I would argue the test is largely irrelevant (except for PR hype) unless the Trainers and Mentor Pilots are being schooled in evaluation of the results and tailoring of the training accordingly.
Gunner

Niner Zulu said...

I'm a little confused as to why I would have to undergo a psych evaluation, fly 100 hrs with a mentor pilot and take upset training to fly an Eclipse, when I could go and buy a Citation 1SP and avoid all of the above. The Citation is an arguably more complicated aircraft to fly, yet the road to flying one is much easier than with an Eclipse.

Nerdy Engineer said...

Gunner said...
I don't know that anyone is arguing that it's not "useful".


I'm arguing that it's not useful. As an example, consider Army Ranger or SEALs. These guys are "A-type", assertive, leadership personalities. Through extensive training, they learn to work as a team. If you only looked at their test results, you would dismiss the idea of putting these guys in the same group.

Most of these "personality profiles" are little more that horoscopes. People get the results and then only notice the parts of their lives that "fit the profile" while ignoring contradictory evidence. BTW, the MBTI developed from the same school of thought that stated you all subconsciously lust after your own mothers.

It's my opinion that the association with United was an attempt to make the Eclipse seem more like an airliner. FlightSafety or one of the other training centers could have done a better job because they have more experience with light jets.

EclipseOwner387 said...

9Z,

What would your insurance rates be on a 1SP? I have heard that Eclipse insurance rates being quoted seem reasonable for a new jet. Would you consider "Psych" testing if it brought down your insurance cost?

I think it is interesting that a simple personality test administered routinely by human resource managers is referred to as a Psych test since it sounds so much worse on the Blog!

flight guy said...

I find it contradictory that an airframe manufacturer mandates safety to the extent that psych tests are mandatory. For no relevant reason than it would be nice to know and then try to certify and deliver aircraft that have cg compliance issues, windshields that crack, tires that blow out, and avionics that don't come close to the hype. To me tat seems hypocritical and dangerous.

tinman said...

I recently took the M-B with UAL - first time I've done one of these with the depth of discussion afterward. I'm a skeptic, but I think for UAL it's a useful tool. They have enough data to claim some success in rough predictions of some aspects of performance and training success. My impression is that it is supposed to make us aware of personality characteristics that might impair our performance. No real surprises - I think most of us become somewhat aware of our strengths and weaknesses as we age, and adjust our behavior a bit to suit the situation, including in the cockpit. I thought the test as administered and discussed was useful. I wouldn't like to see it creep in as a regulatory or insurance requirement - just don't think it's broadly accurate enough and results could be misused and abused. I'm not really fearful that will ever happen.

Nerdy Engineer said...

"...a Psych test... sounds so much worse"

I don't think it sounds worse. Does "psychologist" sound worse than "counselor"?

EO, EB, Ken, brace yourselves for a moment of Eclipse support from me. I don't think there is anything about the Eclipse design that is so "bad" it requires a psychological assessment. In no way does this requirement reflect on the design of the aircraft. I'm also not worried that it will become required throughout GA.

It's just an Eclipse PR move, nothing more, nothing less.

Flying Wolf said...

If a test is used for lowering your insurance it can also be used to raise or deny you insurance.

It can also be used by the FAA of any lawyer in a lawsuit. Bet on it. Its one thing to have to take for ones occupation, its quite another to have to take for ones hobby.

I still go back to Vern's guarantee that if you don't qualify, they won't sell you a jet. I see a bunch of test flunkers.

Vmc said...

My point was not as clear as it could have been in my brief plug for MBPTI testing.

First, there are no FAR regulatory impacts in utilizing this tool as a part of a training curriculum. Could there be in the future? Highly doubtful considering the test has been widely utilized since at least the late 80's.

Secondly, and a point of agreement with EO and Ken; to criticize a company for trying to create a more productive and efficient training experience is couterintuitive to marketing an advanced product to pilots of every skill level.

Lastly, the test is not a psych type test in which you are deemed stable or otherwise; it merely provides a realistic snapshot of your view of the world. Besides, every 6 months to three years, we are all assessed based on our form-prompted answers and subjective evaluation by our favorite DME. They have great authority to keep you out of the air should there be a concern of your mental state of being.

As to MBPTI in its practical use; take a look at the following article for CFIs from AOPA: http://tinyurl.com/yrc43l

Gunner--I too share your concern in protecting our rights (more than you realize), but I don't see this as something that rises to the "concerned" level.

Vmc

Gunner said...

vmc-
Nor am I out to inject "government plot" into the scenario. But I'd still like to understand, if you know the answer:
Is this test an Eclipse requirement for training, an FAA requirement for flying the EA-500 or both?
Gunner

Vmc said...

Gunner,
It's my understanding (which is not all inclusive) that the skills assessment portion of the EAC curriculum is a requirement imposed by EAC only, not the FAA. The type rating aspect (part 142) occurs after the assessment.

Of interest is VR's testimony to congress about the impact of VLJs to the NAS. VR briefly addresses the training curriculum as well. This is the tesimony from last September:
http://tinyurl.com/25azyx


Vmc

Gunner said...

Thanks vmc and a hearty DVC to you!

That testimony, barely six months old, must have been written for a different aircraft. It includes:
- What Avio DOES
- A training Program with United Airlines (Does Eclipse have that now that deliveries are imminent again?)
- A requirement for all owner pilots to begin their training in a full motion simulator (Does Eclipse have any of them now that deliveries are imminent again?)

Still, I'm glad to hear the program is not FAA required. Eclipse has every right to train owner-pilots in the Art of the Force and test them on their Levitation Skills, if it so wishes.

I just think their time might be better spent locking down a training partner that'll stick, training Mentor Pilots and firing up those full motion sims. All are far more useful than an off-the-shelf personality assessment.

Gunner

gadfly said...

Let’s face it:

Regardless of the issues related to Eclipse, “normal people” don’t drive airplanes. They may fly as passengers, but few are comfortable with the idea of piloting anything . . . even a J-3 or a 150. The question is not so much, “insanity” (which is a whole ‘nuther issue), but what type of abnormal behavior will get a crate back down to earth in one piece, without panic, etc..

The folks at Eclipse must know something about the type of person who wants to fly in their little jet . . . and who can blame their concern.

In submarine school, we were told that had we been “normal”, we would have been disqualified for submarine duty. So, in a sense, the “gadfly” is “certifiably” some sort of nut. But that’s OK . . . life is much more interesting for us who are “abnormal”, whether spending a month or more under the ocean (been there, done that) or flying at 49,000 feet in a Lear (been there, done that . . . as a passenger). In both cases, I felt absolutely at home, and safe. It was back down on the ground (or up on the surface . . . whichever) that I felt in danger.

Government control: Now that’s where I am in full agreement with Gunner . . . but then it’s a lot easier to conceal one of my handguns than to conceal a VLJ.

gadfly . . . just rambling on, filling up some space for all those who look for something, anything, on this blogsite . . . come to think about it, I even worked for United at ORD for a year and a half back in the early “sixties” . . . excellent employer. Over and out.

Ken Meyer said...

Rich Lucibella wrote,
"That testimony, barely six months old, must have been written for a different aircraft. It includes:
- What Avio DOES
- A training Program with United Airlines (Does Eclipse have that now that deliveries are imminent again?)
- A requirement for all owner pilots to begin their training in a full motion simulator (Does Eclipse have any of them now that deliveries are imminent again?)"


What part of that did you think was incorrect, Rich?

All Eclipse trainees do indeed start their training in a simulator at United (their 767 simulator in fact). And that part is a test you must pass to proceed with the training. Eclipse is not in the business of remedial instrument training. You must be a current, proficient instrument pilot in order to take the type rating course. The Flight Skills Assessment will likely move to Albuquerque once the Eclipse simulators are ready.

I thought Vern's description of Avio was a good one. Nothing wrong there, though Avio NG offers a couple of additional features not planned for the original Avio.

UAL is no longer the training partner, and the training is no longer taking place in Denver (although for now the flight skills assessment is). That doesn't mean the goals or methods of training are any different than they were when Vern Raburn testified before Congress. It just means the training will be in Albuquerque.

Training will initially be in customer aircraft using the facilities under lease from Bar Seven at KABQ (I took some training there, and the facility seemed plenty big enough for the next few months). The training will transition later this year to the new building at Double Eagle, where I believe the Opinicus simulators will be housed.

I think the training program is exceptionally well thought-out. I'll post more about it here if anyone is interested.

Ken

Gunner said...

Ken-
I'd no idea the training had progressed so far past the planning stage.

Have either of the owner-pilots that have taken delivery of their aircraft finished the course yet or, at least, started? What do they say about it? Please do provide more detail.
Gunner

Gunner said...

It's OK, CD-

Some find great comfort in repeating my name; though, I'll admit, this is the first time one's been a male. ;-)

Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

cherokee driver said,
"A number of people here have asked you to address gunner as gunner."


I'm scratching my head why on earth it could possibly matter to Rich what we call him. Or is it a masquerade party? Everybody pretends to be somebody they're not so they can say stuff that isn't so and nobody questions it.

Stan should have said that in the first place; it would explain why so much of what is written here is wrong. Everybody is just playing a big charade :)

Ken

Stan Blankenship said...

Ken,

What do you say about the absolute BS that comes out of Eclipse and has for about 7 years?

gadfly said...

How in the world to put it in a delicate way, and not to offend anyone? Let’s say that in New Mexico, so very close to certain persons of certain preference who live in Santa Fe, certain elements of society can assume certain things if certain persons use terms that certain elements consider to be of a close personal nature. In plain English, if a blogger uses a pseudonym, it’s best to answer or refer to that person by his/her “pseudonym”.

It would be so easy to tear up the landscape on this one, but I refrain.

gadfly

Gunner said...

"I'm scratching my head why on earth it could possibly matter to Rich what we call him."

Don't drag me into this one, Kenneth. That would be a useless diversion.

Where were we?
Oh, that's right. You volunteered to provide more info on the Eclipse Training Program. So, tell us:

- Have you been thru it or should we just go to the site and read about it (in it's latest planned evolution)?

- Is it currently available?

- Have the first hundred Depositors received the training manuals that we were told went out over a month ago?

- Are any of the next 100 deposit holders (or whatever number have paid their progress payments) enrolled in it yet?

- What are their first hand reports?

- Have any completed? Any "washed out" and been given their money back?

I'm honestly interested in knowing more about it; not what it will be someday in future, but today, while customer deliveries are coming off the line and excited customers are coming off their 7 year wait to fly their planes.

So, how's the training going, given that you're so impressed by it?
Gunner

Plastic_Planes said...

Ken Meyer said:
Everybody pretends to be somebody they're not so they can say stuff that isn't so and nobody questions it.

Ken. I said this once before and I say it again. Unless you can prove anything I have said is untrue, your way out of line. I know you can't, because it would serve me absolutely no purpose to do so. Check my past posts and you'll see that I have supported your arguments and have challenged them.

I am a former employee of E-Clips. If I weren't still in this industry, I would be more open about my identity. Unfortunately, this is a small and tight knot group and if it were widely known theat I discussed things that (arguably) violate my NDA I signed upon employment with E-Clips. I say arguably because I wouldn't divulge anything that has already been discussed or would seriously jeopardize the folks that work there.

it would explain why so much of what is written here is wrong. Everybody is just playing a big charade :)

You're right, it's just a game. Only the lives of 800 or so fine individuals depend on their livelihood there. Many are still my friends and I remain in contact with them. I don't know what you do for a living, but perhaps you'd like to share some of the things your partner/boss/employee does each and every day. I suppose not.

Most of what I post is to try and provide an insider's view of what I went through. My experiences were different from the other engineers, marketing, HR people. That's why it's called perspective.

If you want my perspective, just ask. I'll give it to freely. Really, I will. It'll be tempered by my experiences and values. Nobody here (yourself included) knows what's in your head. Why would you propose to know what's in mine?

I was employed there through some challenging times. Many celebratory one's, too. I saw many first flights and felt proud of what was done. I suffered along with others when tests and parts failed over and over again.

I'm enjoying my new career within this industry. When I left E-Clips, I was offered several positions with a variety of AC manufacturers (some old, some new). I hope this continues for many years on.

Ken: Get a life. If you don't like what you are hearing, you don't have to participate. Let people be what they are. I promise you, if someone writes something I know to be untrue, I'll call them on it. Don't just assume that everyone on this board who fails to agree with you is an idiot. You're vastly outnumbered here.

OK, I'm off the soap box and back to the soap opera...

/s/

Nerdy Engineer said...

Since we're back on the topic of training schedules, I saw something interesting when I made the previous comment about FlightSafety doing a better job.

I noticed you can sign up for Mustang training on April 2nd. I guess this is another example of Vern showing the dinosaurs how it's done.

This must be what Ken was referring to when he said "the training program is exceptionally well thought-out"?

Ken Meyer said...

plastic planes wrote,
"Don't just assume that everyone on this board who fails to agree with you is an idiot."


I don't think everyone on this board is an idiot, but I do think a fair number of the comments have been flatout incorrect. I've pointed out a number of those inaccuracies over time.

My offhand opinion is that we're seeing fewer inaccurate statements here lately, and that is a good thing.

Ken

Gunner said...

Selective responses avoid substance.
Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

nerdy engineer wrote,
"This must be what Ken was referring to when he said "the training program is exceptionally well thought-out"?"


Not at all. I meant the program appears to be well-designed to achieve its stated goal.

You seem surprised that Cessna is beginning training for the Mustang. It doesn't surprise me a bit. Mustang was certified first and delivered first, although their Garmin problem nixed the promised January deliveries.

Eclipse has a couple of aircraft in the field and is conducting training. Mustang has one aircraft in the field and is conducting training. Ho hum.

Ken

gadfly said...

Ken

Do you understand how much the local economy in Albuquerque wanted Eclipse to succeed? . . . in spite of all the scams that we have seen over the years. Eclipse seemed to be the “make up” for what the local bankers did (or didn’t do) with Bill Gates back in the beginning. (They rejected him, and he went on to Seattle, to bigger and better things.) Eclipse seemed to be the redemption that Albuquerque needs. Now it’s beginning to look like “retribution” . . . but all that is beginning to be irrelevant. Local subcontractors are no longer looking so favorably at this new business in town.

In the mean time, you seem to be making a case by slamming those few people who are willing to come forward, to share what they know. And they know that they are in a dangerous position, relating the things that they have seen firsthand. It’s difficult to take on a corporation that has access to more money than they will see in a thousand lifetimes. Even if they use a “pseudonym” (false name, to those who don’t know), it brings certain subjects to our attention . . . and we can pursue it on their behalf, to determine the validity (truthfulness) of their claims.

In the mean time, you have kindly given us your name, but when I “click” on your name, you have blocked all personal information about yourself. That’s fine. We respect, and honor your privacy. But please do not criticize others who in like manner attempt to protect their own identity. Maybe you are vastly rich, and can afford the protection of lawyers, etc., . . . and maybe the “ex-employees” of Eclipse, and others do not have such resources. Quite frankly, my sympathies go with the others . . . and I have learned much more from then, than from you, who spend your time with accusations and innuendo.

‘Want to know about me? . . . “click” on my “pseudonym” . . . easy! ‘Need more information about me, ask and ye shall receive . . . no problem. ‘Want others to know about you? . . . easy enough, if you are so honest. Until then, you are a weariness to many. How many “Ken Meyer’s” are there in the world? . . . probably many.

When you become honest with those who read this blogsite, we will treat you with respect. We want your input, but we don’t want the name calling, and the “put downs”. We want good information concerning this little jet. We come to this “website” because it has at least a small amount of information that is of value. Unfortunately, all other sources seem to be contaminated by what “Rush Limbaugh” calls, “The Drive By Media”, or simply a group of reporters that haven’t done their homework.

‘Justifying yourself is of little value. Anyone can do it . . . no talent required.

Ken, please work with us, not against us. You may yet become a hero on this website.

gadfly

cherokee driver said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nerdy Engineer said...

Ken said...
"I meant the program appears to be well-designed to achieve its stated goal."


Right you are Ken. I'm glad we agree that they did a good job. They certainly showed the naysayers that the "fossilized" comments were dead wrong. You can go get your training in less than two weeks.

EclipseOwner387 said...

The chirping of crickets could be heard through out the blog....

Where is the Goat? He usually adds some activity late night.

Does anyone know how much Eclipse raised in the rumored bridge financing?

Ken Meyer said...

EO387 wrote,
"Does anyone know how much Eclipse raised in the rumored bridge financing?"


Yes.

Ken

Jake Pliskin said...

cherokee man; i'm a little curious what exactly was uncalled for?

as far as a "psych test" it's just not a big issue as far as whether or not to gamble on this aircraft. too many other failed goals and timelines i guess.

ken i know your happy because of some "big good news about to happen" but really man, we've been there how many times now with promised TC, PC and FIKI and not to mention deliveries?

EclipseOwner387 said...

Ken,

I think I do too. Just curious if you did as well. ;-)

Planet eX said...

Two things:

1. Did anyone see this?

"He told CharterX that at some point it "would become necessary to have a larger aircraft--maybe a Cessna Mustang, an Embraer Phenom 100, an Adam A700 or a HondaJet." Who knows?"

http://www.charterx.com/resources/article.aspx?id=2657

2. Am I foggy minded or do the numbers not make sense?

"THE ECLIPSE 500 JET: One jet sold in late 2006, with 2,500 units under deposit. Capacity is sold out until 2008. The $1.5 million Eclipse 500 is the first "very light jet" certified to provide air-taxi services at small regional airports. Innovations include a partially rivet-free welded aluminum fuselage. "This could revolutionize air travel," judge Ron Snyder says."

Capacity is sold out until 2008 but with the claims of 500 built/delivered in 2007 and 2,500 supposed deposits, where are the remaining 2000?

To clarify:
2007 - 500
2008 - slots available?

Huh?

Ken Meyer said...

Jake wrote,
"ken i know your happy because of some "big good news about to happen" but really man, we've been there how many times now with promised TC, PC and FIKI and not to mention deliveries?"


Jake, I'm happy, but I don't think I ever said it was because of "big good news about to happen" though I've heard that rumor too.

The TC occurred within the timeframe promised in my contract. FIKI was known to be impossible until the revised configuration (that's the real source of the delay--there is no point certifying the A model for flight into known icing). And the PC will happen when it happens. They're delivering planes in the interim and have adjusted the delivery schedule to reflect the reality that they don't have a PC yet.

Ken

EclipseBlogger said...

Planet X said... Capacity is sold out until 2008 but with the claims of 500 built/delivered in 2007 and 2,500 supposed deposits, where are the remaining 2000?

To clarify:
2007 - 500
2008 - slots available?


Delivery positions are scheduled beyond 2010. There are "holes" in the schedule that can be purchased.

Jake Pliskin said...

Ken, you're right i did put a couple extra words in your mouth, sorry! These were your words,

"...I've received confidential information in the last two days that has me wearing a very big grin tonight..."

It was actually your grin that was big not the news!! :) Although one could safely assume from the fact you were grinning that the news was good!

and to nitpick a little; TC may have been as promised in your contract but was certainly later than advertised over and over (i'm tired and don't feel like doing any looking to see by what factor they were late). also, going only by memory at this point, i can remember as late as sept 06 hearing how FIKI would be a done deal once natural icing conditions existed.

bill e. goat said...

Wow, I got bogged down for a couple days, sure is hard to catch back up here!

Thanks to Gadfly for his nice disertation on Cad and Cam a couple of days ago, and CAD1, I mean KAD1, and Stan's input too.

I contemplated alternate blog names, as some kind readers have suggested, and came up with a few for our consideraton:

owner's suggestion:
Eclipse_Land_Of_Disenchantment

employee's suggestion:
Vern_Is_Satan

(some) of our fellow bloggers suggestion:
Ken_Is_Worse_Than_Vern

Vern's suggestion:
Rome_Wasn't_Built_In_A_Day

probably most of our fellow bloggers:
What_Does_BBQ_Goat_Taste_Like

bill e. goat said...

Also, thanks to Stan for delivery info- sounds like there are parts for the first dozen planes, "until PC".

It would seem that would be a coincidence, but the two aren't related?

New parts (Avio-NfG) will require an STC, unrelated to the PC process, at least initially (?)

bill e. goat said...

Owner/pilot alpha-male grabs his cell phone and calls ABQ, "Hey Vern, let me tell you how I feel, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ."

-Not only with a cell phone- with the NfG avionics, it is conceivable that the radios might now be useful for something beside ballast. I hope Vern's end has a squelch knob!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

NerdyE- you mention "the Barnum Effect"- ? Is that some sales training program Eclipse uses?

Also that link to MBTI- I think that should be "MTBF-Coming Up Short" ? (ha).

I pretty much thought everyone was already aware of the psych screening, no? I think it fits in well with the overall training strategy. It's NOT an FAA thing, nor an insurance thing, it's an Eclipse marketing thing. Keep the cost of ownership low, by keeping insurance low.

Sort of like GM with their auto-on headlights a few years ago. Their car's had lower crash worthiness ratings than other manufacturers, so they rigged their cars so the headlights were always on. It didn't make the cars any safer, it just made the risk of an accident lower, so the overall insurance cost dropped. (I guess in this case it was trying to keep the NTSB off their ass, by using "statistics" to show a driver was "safer" in a GM car).

Anyway, in this context, all this training stuff is to provide numbers for Eclipse to use in their "cost of ownership" statistics.

I'm not sure, but I suspect the psych aspect might also have some pertinence to the "new market". Maybe prop jockeys that always wanted to drive an F-18 or something. (Not there aren't a lot of jet jockeys that want to drive F-18's as well...).

This strategy seems a bit demeaning to the owners. But (Stan can probably provide more info on this), "rumor has it" that 10 of the first 100 Learjets crashed, and "pilot error" was a factor in many of these.

The scenario is similar- high performance, relatively low cost, untapped market, perhaps less experienced pilots than typical for this performance threshold...

Technical capability, personality issues, aircraft handling and systems management issues; not sure of the mix in the early Lear cases, but I think Eclipse is trying to address all of these issues. Not for the sake of the pilot, but for the reputation of Eclipse, and advertising numbers.

(Not to say they discount safety*- just the opposite, I believe; tacky attempts to rush early models into service not withstanding...I think the in-service stats will be quite favorable, and even more so with the newer avionic suite.)

Worries that the training could muck things up- I don't think so. I'm not sure of the details, but I think it is an Eclipse sales contract requirement, not an FAA requirement.

Also, regarding insurance, while the potential is there for it to be "turned against" the owner, I think they already abuse most folks to the limit of their pocket books, so they can't squeeze too much harder without hurting their own bottom line.

* And, after all, there is the addage, "don't fly higher than you want to fall!

:) Sorry, I couldn't resist.

bill e. goat said...

Goat-a hop along to bed-
Hope everyone has a nice weekend.

Gunner said...

EB-
I'm confused by your statement that there are "holes" in the schedule. Many of the Depositors requested an earlier position if one came open and I was personally promised same.

So, if a 2008 "hole" comes open, why wouldn't that go (even for a surcharge) to one of the loyal customers that's already ponied up the deposit? Even if Eclipse were not willing to do that, why wouldn't it go to the next person to sign a Deposit form?

This would not be suspicious if everyone still owned a HULL NUMBER, like you do when you buy any aircraft or luxury boat. But Eclipse revoked all of those numbers a year ago. Now all Depositors have is "promise" of delivery in such and such quarter; which really doesn't mean much since none of these are objectively identifiable to the constantly morphing Production Schedule.

Yet we're seeing public reports (confirmed by you) that 2008 positions are still available. Must not sit real well with those that have been waiting for years.

Ken-
Still waiting for you to step up and give us more details of the Eclipse Training Program as you volunteered. How's it coming along? Any OWNER reports on the classroom work yet? How 'bout the sims? Surely David Crowe must be doing the training syllabus in his own plane by now...it's been three months since delivery. Or does the lease-back mean he has access neither to the plane nor to the training?

Gunner

EclipseBlogger said...

Shot-myself-in-the-foot Gunner said... I'm confused by your statement that there are "holes" in the schedule. Many of the Depositors requested an earlier position if one came open and I was personally promised same.

Sorry, probably my error. I was still thinking in terms of the schedule before all of the TC delays and such. Now with deliveries delayed from last June to "March" (today), I should probably have said that there are open delivery positions in the schedule between the end of 2009 and 2011.

a37pilot said...

Holes in the delivery schedule are not that unusual with most fleet aircraft orders. The question here is whether there is a hole in the schedule or a bottomless pit.

Ken Meyer said...

gunner wrote,
"Still waiting for you to step up and give us more details of the Eclipse Training Program as you volunteered."

Rich, there is a nice document that customers get describing the entire training process. You can read it here.

I don't know whether or when David Crowe is training in his plane, however it has been previously reported that he'll be using professional pilots to fly for him, at least at first (he's not alone; there are a number of pilot/owners with similar plans). The first non-professional pilots to take the type rating course are scheduled to begin next week.

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

Correction; that last sentence should read, "The first non-professional pilots to take the type rating course are scheduled to begin in a week (4/2/07 actually)."

lumar said...

Right! A guy paying for a Eclipse-Jet needs a Shrink immediatly...

lumar said...

To: ^^EclipseOwner387^^

Do you really think you own anything from Eclipse on day? LOL!

Stan Blankenship said...

goat,

Ironic you bring up the safety record of the Learjet. Lear's now retired accident investigator for 25 years, head of certification for about 15 years, my college room mate from 46 years ago, and his wife will be our house guests tonight. There is lots to talk about.

The safety record of the GE powered Lear's (23/24/25) is regrettable to say the least.

Of the three models, the 23 was the worst by far, suffering more than a 10% attrition rate. I am not able to find my summary of the accidents but I would guess that about half of the early accidents were pilot error and half due to design problems.

There was never a specific design flaw pinned to the 23, but many things were changed and accidents due to unknown causes went away.

The accident record for the 35/36 series was generally pretty good.

And while it is admirable for Eclipse to say, "we want to avoid a repeat of the Lear experience," I would respond with two points:

In the 40 some years since the first fatal Lear Jet accident, many lessons have been learned and corrected in all aspects of the design, certification, training and operation of business jets. I trust, we will never see a repeat of that unfortunate page in aviation history.

The Eclipse is no Lear Jet or Learjet. The reported docile handling characteristics are closer to the Citation, an airplane with an admirable safety record. Eclipse should follow the Citation model, it works, even for single pilot operations!

Koolaid-drinker1 said...

Fellow Bloggers

Here is a short test that you may find revealing......

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

KAD1 (aka CAD1)

Gunner said...

Ken-
Thanks much for adding to our body of knowledge by pointing up another Eclipse PR piece that describes how The World will be, someday, perhaps. Silly me, I thought you had first hand knowledge of the training that's been going on for months with a secret training partner in an underground hangar. 'Nother "raise and check", I guess.

Well, I'll see you one Eclipse and raise you one Moller:
No Pilot Skills Necessary. It's right there in the brochure. ;-)

A37-Pilot:
Agreed that holes in aircraft Delivery Scheds are not unusual in a world where purchasers are assigned a SN and can track company progress. But THESE holes are interesting, despite EB's flip-flop. We've learned on this Blog that one Depositor was assigned a number of 13XX in April '05. I was assigned 1317 in July '06....do the math.

The Faithful are quick to point out that there are "contingent fleet orders" that fill in the Order Book. But it's safe to say that Eclipse didn't simply assign me a position in front of the people that had been purchasing during the previous 13 months. I was at the back of the Order Line, I can assure you.

Still, we're to believe 2,500 orders; I guess half are made up of "contingent fleet orders". Of course, current Depositors have no way of knowing who's being slipped in ahead of them as the planes come off the line. Current depositors have no Serial Numbers.

Welcome to the World of Math and Customer Service, According to Eclipse. :-)

Gunner

EclipseBlogger said...

Koolaid-drinker1 said...
Fellow Bloggers, Here is a short test that you may find revealing......

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp


This is the same test that is being administered by Eclipse. It categorizes your personality and how you deal with real life situations, emotion, problem solving, etc. Are you really afraid to take this test and discuss it? There's no pass fail. It has nothing to do with possible future litigation. It will not weed out psycho astronauts. It has nothing to with amendment rights. As usual, this blog makes a big deal out of absolutely nothing.

Ken Meyer said...

Shot-myself-in-the-foot Gunner wrote,
"Thanks much for adding to our body of knowledge by pointing up another Eclipse PR piece that describes how The World will be, someday, perhaps. Silly me, I thought you had first hand knowledge of the training that's been going on for months with a secret training partner in an underground hangar."


Rich, you asked for information on the training program, and I pointed you to a good description of it. I can see you are unhappy that they really do have a program in place, ready to turn out pilots as fast as they can produce the planes.

There are right now more than a dozen instructors on staff and plenty of classroom space. I have myself done portions of this program. It's a real program, and I think it's got you feeling badly you bailed out.

Ken

Stan Blankenship said...

eb,

Eclipse brought psych testing into the equation, it is fair game for discussion.

In this age when insurance companies and others are tapping into the most private aspects of our individual lives, I would not be happy to have the results of my psych test on file at United or Eclipse or anywhere else.

EclipseOwner387 said...

Lumar said,
Do you really think you own anything from Eclipse on day? LOL!


I think you are asking me if I think I will own anything from Eclipse one day. Actually, I have a hat, a shirt and a wooden model.

I am hoping someday I have a jet from Eclipse. I am sure Eclipse wants to deliver just like I bet you wished you could have written a clearly formed sentence! LOL!!

;-)

Stan Blankenship said...

eo387,

I believe lumar is from Germany and he probably writes English better than you write German.


Lumar,

Welcome aboard lumar, your views provide the perspective from 3,500 miles away. Thanks.

EclipseOwner387 said...

Stan,

I actually studied German for three years. And you would be correct!

Everyone needs to lighten up!

Gunner said...

Ken said:
"I can see you are unhappy that they really do have a program in place, ready to turn out pilots as fast as they can produce the planes."

Oh, OK. Has David Crowe finished the course yet? Started it? Have the first 60 or 100 training manuals gone out as promised 5 weeks ago? If so, are they still pertinent now that UA walked out?

These are the things that describe a working training program to me. Plans for the future are, well, just more promises, you know.


EO-
I be as light and cool as shaved ice. ;-)
Gunner

Planet eX said...

Eclipse may have a training program in place, may have instructors, and may have plenty of classroom space but they are lacking aircraft (only two with COA) and simulators to train in.

Until they have sufficient aircraft or simulators (one simulator won't cut it), they won't be cranking out many pilots with type ratings.

As for the simulator(s), the first was supposed to be delivered in Q1 2006 - now it's over a year late (doesn't say much for Eclipse or Opinicus) and the first FTD (it's not a full motion simulator) won't be delivered for a few months.

Even if they get the FTD, converting it to a full motion simulator is going to take it off-line for a couple months plus it will have to be certified by the FAA (yes, simulators require certification to get Level C or D qualification).

Does Eclipse have a building to house the simulators? Full motion sims cannot be installed in just any old building with sufficient height. There are structural issues to be considered (if you'd seen the construction for one of SimuFlite's wings at DFW, you'd understand how much work has to be done to house a simulator).

Finally, concerning their training program, is it JAR certified? If not, that's another exercise in dealing with bureaucracy. FAA certification does not automatically get you JAR certification. BTW, when is Eclipse going to get TC certification other than the FAA?

EclipseBlogger said...

Stan said... Eclipse brought psych testing into the equation, it is fair game for discussion.

In this age when insurance companies and others are tapping into the most private aspects of our individual lives, I would not be happy to have the results of my psych test on file at United or Eclipse or anywhere else.


Anything is open for discussion. Some thing are just more worthwhile than others. This "psych" test that has your feather ruffled is a non-event. The term "psych test" is probably a misnomer. This is more of a personality test to better classify how one reacts to situations, and how one should be taught to deal with situations and procedures. It will not weed out the potential of someone going "postal" with their aircraft. If you haven't taken the test, and read the description of the results, you have no basis to comment. Perhaps that is one of the personality classification traits that is used to attract posters to this blog.

EclipseBlogger said...

Planet-x said... Until they have sufficient aircraft or simulators (one simulator won't cut it), they won't be cranking out many pilots with type ratings.

Until they have significant numbers of aircraft being delivered, cranking out pilots and type ratings to other than employees, mentors and instructors is not much of a requirement.

Gunner said...

EB said:
"Perhaps that is one of the personality classification traits that is used to attract posters to this blog."

Gratuitous Ad Hominem.

Stan Blankenship said...

eo,

Will records be kept on the results of your "personality test" where they can later be accessed by subpoena?

BTW, the psych test does not ruffle my feather as you suggest, but I would absolutely refuse to take the test on principle. After living with myself for all these years, I know who I am and know how I react in critical situations!

EclipseOwner387 said...

Hallo Lumar,

Es tut mir leid. Es war einfach nicht so gemeint. Ich wollte einfach ein bischen lustig sein.

Ich füllte das in der letzten zeit das das mitteilungsbrett zu ernsthaft geworden ist. Deswegen wollte ich versuchen ein bisschen humör zubringen.

Schöne grüsse aus Kentucky.

Gunner said...

Well done, EO!

EclipseBlogger said...

Stan said... Will records be kept on the results of your "personality test" where they can later be accessed by subpoena?

I guess anything on record could be subpoenaed. But, my point is why would anyone do it. There are a total of 16 different personality types - these are very general categories that would serve very little use to anyone under an investigate of any kind. I think you are really reaching to find something even remotely sinister, or a violation of privacy, in this one.

twinpilot said...

Come on Stan, put on your Eclipse beanie, sit down and take the test. This is Vern World and if you want to play with Vern you have to play by Vern's rules. Vern knows best you know. We all just love Vern you know. Just sit down, at a computer (everything is paperless in Vern's world you know) and we will give you a big glass of Kool Aid. Now doesn't that feel better?

bill e. goat said...

I love Vern!

and I love the Eclipse!

Let's rebuild the confidence for Vern's dream!!

bill e. goat said...

Stan, thanks for the safety perspective on the 2x/3x series.

We're all grateful for the certification process, it has made the industry stronger overall.

Hope your evening with old pals is going well- sounds like a pretty small world!

gadfly said...

Fifty years ago, I had finished thirty days of emergency leave, helping my mother and sister deal with the death of my dad, and found myself on a “MATS” (Military Air Transport Service) DC6B, flying from Travis to Hickam to Wake to Tokyo to catch up with my sub, the USS Tiru SS416, operating in Japanese and Russian waters.

At about the eighteen hour point in the trip, we let down over water, and just as we passed the “beach”, the tires made contact with the strip . . . props went to full reverse pitch, four eighteen cylinder P&W engines, producing 10,000 sea-level horsepower applied full power, hard braking finally brought the Douglas DC6B to a walk, as the wing swung a clockwise “180" over the beach at the other end of the short runway, over ancient coral. We taxied back to what had once been a refueling stop for Pan American Airways . . . and the place of execution of about ninety-seven Americans in 1943, because someone had failed to support these brave men in their holdout against an enemy in late December 1941.

While the “Douglas” was refueled, I walked along the coral, took a few pictures with my Zeis-Ikon camera, and noticed the rusting Japanese ships, beached in the sand. I took my seat (facing backward . . . standard seating for “MATS”), and felt the power as four Hamilton-Standards bit the warm salty air, to continue another 2,000 miles across the vast Pacific. It was April 1957 . . . the war had been over for almost twelve years.

As I looked forward to seeing Tokyo from the air, twenty-seven hours had finally caught up with me, and I awoke as we taxied up to the gate in the dark . . . I caught the military bus, south, to the Navy base at the shipyards at Yokosuka.

Six years later, I would be loading and unloading DC6B’s, DC7's, DC8's, Boeing 720's, 727's (including the very first one), Sud Caravelles, Vickers Viscount’s . . . a time of great transition. The smell of JP3 and JP4 mixed with 130 octane (rating) gasoline, plus the wind coming off those props in the bitter midnight cold of a Chicago winter, was my nightly fare. The transition in transportation was at its height.

Unlearned history has been repeated three or four times in my life so far. It seems that human pride is most often the culprit. There may be application both in the politics of the last few days, and the challenges of the “VLJ”.

. . . rambling of a gadfly

lumar said...

Hi EO 387

No problem, me to I like your 'humör' - and you know what: I am preparing a T-Shirt for Lakeland in 3 weeks and thinking for a funny slogan on it.

How with: In Front - I paid for a Eclipse and in the Back: Do I need a Shrink now?!

It will be funny to walk around with that...

lumar said...

Hello Stan

Thanks for your welcome.

I was to the EBAN-Exhibition in Geneva this year and was ready to fill out a cheque for Eclipse. I find the airplane in many way sexy and with the European Fuel-Prizes even more interesting!

I did not sign a order then, because I have an exciting life anyway and I am not willing to become unhappy with a bad 2M$-investment.

Gunner said...

Gad-
Missed your calling. You should have been a writer....or, at least, an Andy Rooney type, editorialist.
Gunner

cherokee driver said...

lumar

How about this one:

EA500
CUZ I LIKE MY ECLIPSE
STIR FRIED!

observer said...

Stan,
Most of the postings and comments were, I think reflects a reality of culture within inside Eclipse. Mostly, blame others, instead of looking inside what they had not done to streamline the organization top level people.
I had been many startups, none had built a press euphoria and spent that much $$ on free drinks.

I agree, they have few dedicated engineers, smart, sincere and frustrated.
I refrained from posting any as I had been asked to go. My commets won't hold much credibility as I may be emotional. Also, I am new to Aviation industry.

However, I see your blog's quality going down as the important points are missing, now it is growing towards 'negative rhetoric' and 'story spinning'.

I think I can comment on this part.
I had been watching the site from the begining where you had only 3 postings, by you.

When I was there, I always heard in meetings, Mr. Vern was running the company based on IT model. However, whatever the model it may be, one can not make a 'fool' out of the aviation industry.

Your blog points out the mistakes and failures of eclipse. However, some comments/postings make it loose credibility.

Thanks for listening.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

To Stan's question, I think the MBPTI DOES have results that WILL either prevent certain types from being typed in this plane, OR that WILL result in recrminations after the accidents begin to happen (not because this is an Eclipse, but because this is an airplane - every program I have been involved with has ultimately had accidents).

THE MBPTI looks at how different personality types react to different types of stress. The generic descriptions range from effectively 'take charge' to 'seek distraction or task avoidance'.

I would not take a personality test in order to fly a specific aircraft when there are hundreds of thousands of alternatives that do not require any such nonsense.

The use of the MBPTI, as was the case with the FORMER relationship with United, is simply more smoke and mirrors - being different for the SAKE of being different.

It is my belief that MBPTI testing adds NOTHING to the safe operation of OWNER-FLOWN aircraft - and only gives EAC another out with the early adopters to charge more for the aircraft by cancelling older contracts, suggesting the candidate failed some test.

It would be interesting to learn what, if any, washouts occur at United and other 121 operators, even 135 operators using this or similar testing.

Despite all the marketing protestations to the contrary, this airplane is NOT a mini-737.

EclipseOwner387 said...

ColdFish,

I think you are flat wrong.

If someone can pass the flight tests and have a proper medical then I can not see how this predictive personality test could deny them a type. Eclipse would have a law suit on its hands. I don't see this as credible at all. Do you have any proof or are you purely speculating?

EclipseOwner387 said...

Lumar,

Again the use of "Psych" test would seem to translate to the determination of metal illness or not. The MB test is a personality test - and as far as I know it doesn't predict multiple personalites! ;-)

Anyway, if you think it determines mental illness you have been misinformed. And of course this blog would like to steer you to thinking that very thing. The fact Stan made it such a big deal on the blog is embarrassing for the blog - IMHO.


Stan nor this blog has not come up with anything earth shattering lately. I expected more with all the hype from the other night. Even Airtaximan has disappeared - I assume he sees this as lame news too. For the Eclipser's - I think we can all say the blog has run out of tangible stuff to really talk about. Anyway, I am off to study for my MBTI - I don't want to fail it!

Gunner said...

EO-
While I agree that the personality test is not going to get anyone washed out, it can most certainly be later used against a pilot involved in a mishap. But that's not an issue of "good or bad"; it's an issue for each Depositor to make a personal decision on. I'd find it insulting if it were not then used to customize my training, but not necessarily a deal breaker

Nor do I think every Blog post here has to be about earth shaking news. This one is simply about a rather unusual and strange training requirement that is, ostensibly good for only one thing: demonstrating that Eclipse is "Just like the Big Boys". Like I said, they have that right.

Here's what I find a bit humorous:
When this Blog is engaged in a spirited discussion of truly substantive issues, we're accused of being "spring loaded" to bash Eclipse. When the Blog quiets down and turns to less controversial topics, we're guilty of "running out of issues".

I personally don't think we need a new topic every day; or even a topic equivalent to fleet groundings with every new entry.

For my money, this is a pretty informative discussion about a portion of the training curriculum. When we attempted to delve deeper, we were essentially handed a Press Release and told Eclipse is "ready to turn out pilots as fast as they can produce the planes".

I'd hardly call that substantive from the "other" side, you know?
Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

Interesting point, EO.

At 10PM on 3/22, Stan wrote,
"atm,
Make you a deal, will put a new post up in the morning that will get your propeller spinning."


Naturaly, I was worried. What did Stan have? An Eclipse crashed that day? The FAA grounded the fleet? Vern Raburn was caught boarding a plane to Madagascar?

So, what was the earth-shattering news guaranteed to get Eclipse-critics propellers spinning at full tilt?

True to his word, Stan posted the awful news the next morning: Eclipse is using the Myers-Briggs profile!!!

Huh? I yawned and said to myself, "Ho hum. That's old old news, and who cares anyway? Is that really the best he's got?"

I think you're exactly right, EO--this is the best they've got right now. After a long wait, Eclipse is finally a real product, certificated, and getting in the hands of customers. They've got a training program up and running, and they have realistic plans for a lot of planes to be delivered this year.

The Critics, meanwhile, have the Myers-Briggs profile. They've run out of steam.

Ken

Gunner said...

See what I mean. ;-)
Gunner

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

I was trying to get something going. It worked!

;-)

Gunner said...

Then my point is simply reaffirmed....TWICE.

Perhaps it is not "us" who are seeking controversy; perhaps it is not "us" who are "spring loaded".

Gunner

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

But look how fast you responded! You beat Ken to the punch!!

Anyway, I am heading to a cookout and to watch the Gtown/UNC game. It is 83 degrees in Louisville and just gorgeous. I went flying today in my Cirrus. It doesn't get much better than this! Everyone have a great evening!

Gunner said...

"You beat Ken to the punch!!"

No, I did much better than that. I actually stiole his own words, BEFORE he even posted. Not that I'm that good; just that some tasks are that "simple".

Enjoy the BBQ. Venison and sausage lasagna on the menu here. Home made meat sauce ("gravy" for you Philadelphia Heathens!). Escarole and bean soup for starters. Served with a smoky Barbera on the side.

Peasant food is ALWAYS the best!
Gunner

Koolaid-drinker1 said...

Gunner

Don't forget the Kool-Aid to wash it down with!

P.S. I predict that 3 aircraft will be delivered to Day Jet in the next (few) days!

Enjoy - ;>)

KAD1 (aka CAD1)

Gunner said...

KAD-
Did you not know that "Barbera" is a beverage? No matter, I'll see you and raise you.

IF these LONG OVERDUE planes ARE delivered, they will lack Part 135 Certification and we'll be told:

- No matter; they're for "training" only. (Everything but 135 training, that is.)

- They'll not be delivered to Boca, but will remain under Eclipse control for the "training".

- It'll be promised that they'll be "retrofitted" to "comply" by "Late June". (Just like David Crowe's aircraft and the next dozen that have been promised "any day now".)

You're not the only one with sources here. ;-)
Gunner

Koolaid-drinker1 said...

Gunner,

Sorry, But I am only serving the "sweetened" Kool-Aid today.

Enjoy your "fine eats" and have a wonderful weekend.

KAD1 (aka CAD1)

Niner Zulu said...

Ken wrote " After a long wait, Eclipse is finally a real product, certificated, and getting in the hands of customers. They've got a training program up and running, and they have realistic plans for a lot of planes to be delivered this year. "

Nearly a billion dollars and Eclipse has - what - 2 planes delivered? Do they still say "Experimental" on the side. If not, they probably should. They are barely functional and the buyers are little more than beta testers.

Sorry...just not impressed. It will take a lot more than 2 aircraft to convince me. That doesn't make me a naysayer, Ken - I'm just as eager as you to see more Eclipse's flying and all of the issues resolved successfully. I just think that you, along with a lot of other intelligent people, are being duped and so far I haven't seen or read anything that has changed my mind.

I just don't see any reason to gamble hard money on this long shot.

Planet eX said...

I'm curious about the Eclipse training program.
Are they using an altitude chamber for their high-altitude training?

Gunner said...

Niner Z-
Side note, not associated with the Blog. Contact me, if you're willing: eclipse@thefiringline.com

If you'd prefer not to, no problem here.
Gunner

a37pilot said...

If I'm not mistaken these numbers came from VR himself:

"As we remove these hurdles and move forward, our team is aggressively working to meet or exceed our delivery schedule for customer aircraft. Below is the updated aircraft delivery schedule for 2007:"

Q1 12
Q2 59
Q3 120
Q4 211

TOTAL 402

Now if we consider the virtual 2006
delivery that was actually make in 2007 that makes two "delivered" aircraft with 10 more due between now and midnight on Saturday.

VR instead of another "updated" delivery schedule how about a realistics one,

Q1 - 2
Q2 - 8
Q3 - 12
Q4 - 18

Total 40

And if you need somebody else to throw under the bus, how about blaming all the bloggers

Just a suggestion

EclipseBlogger said...

Sorry to digress... The Byers-Briggs test categorizes personalities into the following classes:

The Eight Preferences
(E)xtraversion: Focus on outer world of people, many friends with brief contact, Talk more than listen, Approachable, keep up with social happenings.
(I)ntroversion: Focus on inner world of ideas. Few friends with longer contact, Good listeners, reserved, reflective, private.
(S)ensing: Focus on the present, like tangible results, facts and figures, Sequential--Front to back, literal, down to earth, specific answers, routines.
i(N)tuition: Focus on the future or past, patterns & possibilities, ideas and theories, head in the clouds, like general answers, fantasies and daydreaming.
(T)hinking: Decisions based on logic and objective analysis, remember numbers & figures better than names & faces, prefer truth over agreement.
(F)eeling: Decisions based on personal feelings and values, think with the heart, compassionate, puts self in others' shoes, prefer harmony over truth.
(J)udging: Likes to-do lists and schedules, organized, neat, do what you're supposed to do, deadlines, order, get things done, work first, always on time.
(P)ercieving: Flexible, spontaneous, adaptable, doesn't plan, like the unknown, easily distracted, wait till last minute, turns work into play, keep options open.

The eight preferences are combined to define 16 distinct personality types, as follows (source: http://keirsey.com/index.html#sixteentypes):

Guardians
Supervisor ESTJ Inspector ISTJ
Provider ESFJ Protector ISFJ

Artisans
Promoter ESTP Crafter ISTP
Performer ESFP Composer ISFP

Idealists
Teacher ENFJ Counselor INFJ
Champion ENFP Healer INFP

Rationals
Fieldmarshal ENTJ Mastermind INTJ
Inventor ENTP Architect INTP

-------------------

I took the test and found that it says I am a ENTJ type. Some of the people of this group are: George Washington, John F Kennedy, and Martin Luther King. For Gunner, Charlton Heston is also an ENTJ. Just to show how "valuable" (actually useless as a psychological test) this classification test is, other people in this group are: Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

Now someone please tell me how this could possibly be used against me in any court of law or investigation. Whats the big deal?

Gunner said...

Ahhh, yes, the INTJ/ENTJ personality.

That's easy:
" So, Mr. EB, you took this test?"

"Yes"

"And you understood what the results meant?"

"Yes, they meant I'm a Leader. I'm a 'doer'"

"Yes you are. But you also fall apart under pressure, don't you? And you knew this and did nothing to arrange extra training in a very complicated aircraft and that's why my client is in a wheel chair for life, isn't it?"

"What on earth are you talking about? The test said I was very thorough and could work thru any problem."

"Ah, yes, that's the part that you took from it. But you failed to heed or act on the OTHER part, didn't you?
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury. Here's what we know of Mr. EB's personality...and what HE Knows also:
'Under stress, ISTJs may fall into "catastrophe mode", where they see nothing but all of the possibilities of what could go wrong.....They will lose their ability to see things calmly and reasonably, and will depress themselves with their visions of doom.'
Ladies and Gentlemen, I rest my case"

Gunner

Gunner said...

Prefer the strict ENTJ?

Here you go:

"Because the world of feelings and values is not where the ENTJ naturally functions, they may sometimes make value judgments and hold onto submerged emotions which are ill-founded and inappropriate, and will cause them problems - sometimes rather serious problems.

"ENTJs are often "larger than life" in describing their projects or proposals. This ability may be expressed as salesmanship, story-telling facility...

When challenged, the ENTJ may by reflex become argumentative."


If the shoe fits, remember you're the one that claimed it. ;-)
Gunner

Koolaid-drinker1 said...

I wonder how these fellows from one of those "Dinosaur Aircraft Companies" would have done if they had taken the Myers-Briggs test?

(Taken from AOPA.org)

"Former Raytheon officers to pay six-figure fines

Two former Raytheon officers and the former chief financial officer of Raytheon Aircraft have agreed to pay more than $1.5 million to settle charges by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for failing, between 1997 and 2001, to disclose deteriorating financial results for sales of commercial aircraft. Franklyn A. Caine, former chief financial officer of Raytheon, will pay $831,072, including a $125,000 civil penalty. Edward S. Pliner, former controller and lead auditor for Raytheon, will pay $565,042, which includes a $150,000 civil penalty. In addition, he will not be able to practice before the SEC as an accountant for three years. James E. Gray, former chief financial officer of Raytheon Aircraft, will pay $105,753 out of past bonus amounts. The problem resulted from overstating sales revenue and operating income in 2000 and failing to disclose losses of $67 million and $240 million from the company's commuter aircraft line. The losses were instead taken in the third quarter of 2001."

KAD1 (aka CAD1)

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

EO,

The following criticism of the MBPTI is from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Cognitive_function_dynamics_in_each_type)

"Validity
The scientific basis of the MBTI has been questioned. Neither Katharine Cook Briggs nor Isabel Briggs Myers had any scientific qualifications and Carl Jung's theory of psychological type, which the MBTI attempts to operationalise, is not based on any scientific studies. Jung's methods primarily included introspection and anecdote, methods largely rejected by the modern field of cognitive psychology. [16]

The statistical validity of the MBTI as a psychometric instrument has also been subject to criticism, in particular, the dichotomous scoring of dimensions. For example, it was expected that scores would show a bimodal distribution with peaks near the ends of the scales. However, scores on the individual subscales are actually distributed in a centrally peaked manner similar to a normal distribution. A cut-off exists at the centre of the subscale such that a score on one side is classified as one type, and a score on the other side as the opposite type. This fails to support the concept of type--the norm is for people to lie near the middle of the subscale. [17][5][18][3][4]

It has been estimated that between a third and a half of the published material on the MBTI has been produced for conferences of the Center for the Application of Psychological Type (which provides training in the MBTI) or as papers in the Journal of Psychological Type (which is edited by Myers-Briggs advocates) [19] and it has been argued that this reflects a lack of critical scrutiny. [5][19]

Reliability
The reliability of the test has been interpreted as being low, with test takers who retake the test often being assigned a different type. According to surveys performed by the proponents of Myers-Briggs, the highest percentage of people fell into the same category on the second test is only 47%. Furthermore, a wide range of 39% - 76% of those tested fall into different types upon retesting weeks or years later, and many people's types also found to vary according to the time of the day.[5][18] Skeptics claim that the MBTI lacks falsifiability, which can cause confirmation bias in the interpretation of results with the terminology of the MBTI so vague that it allows any kind of behavior to fit any personality type, resulting in the Forer effect, where an individual gives a high rating to a positive description that supposedly applies specifically to them [5][16] so that when people are asked to compare their preferred type to that assigned by the MBTI only half of people pick the same profile. [20]

Utility
The relevance of the MBTI for career-planning has been questioned, with reservations about the relevance of type to job performance or satisfaction, and concerns about the potential misuse of the instrument in labelling individuals. [5][21]"

Stress reactions by MBPTI - a couple samples below - this is what I believe will end up with recriminations from the testing:

ISTJ
Might lack focus and appear confused about what to do next, or they might constantly present fact after fact, overwhelming others. Still others might lose their ability to set priorities, or begin to ruminate about problems.

ENFP
In contrast, when ENFPs are under stress, they can become overwhelmed by details and turn very picky. Tunnel vision is another common reaction, as are extreme swings in emotions and activity.

Lose the ability to set priorities under stress - hmmmm, why then Mr. Rayburn did your company allow Mr. A to purchase your aircraft when you KNEW they could lose the ability to set priorities when stressed?

Tunnelvision - hmmmm, why then Mr. Rayburn did you allow Ms. B to operate your aircraft when you KNEW she might develop tunnelvision when stressed?

Decision, plaintiff.

Next

EclipseBlogger said...

Oh, please. Here's a list of more ENTJ's:

Kofi Annan
Lucille Ball
George W. Bush
Bill Clinton
Hillary Rodham Clinton
Mikhail Gorbachev
Emmylou Harris
Charlton Heston
Adolf Hitler
Saddam Hussein
John F. Kennedy
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Robert E. Lee
Jim Lehrer
Rush Limbaugh
Wynton Marsalis
Saint Paul
Ronald Reagan
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Margaret Thatcher
Barbara Walters
George Washington
George F. Will

I think I can safely say that many of these individuals never actually took the test. None the less they have been clissified as ENTJ's.

Many of the questions leave much to interpretation. Many of the questions use absolutes such as "always" and "all". Other question ask you to make a call without knowing the situation. For example, "You value justice higher than mercy." With regard to what? Always, mostly, sometimes? I'm sure I don't know.

Here's a version of the test:

You are almost never late for your appointments
YES NO

You like to be engaged in an active and fast-paced job
YES NO

You enjoy having a wide circle of acquaintances
YES NO

You feel involved when watching TV soaps
YES NO

You are usually the first to react to a sudden event:
the telephone ringing or unexpected question
YES NO

You are more interested in a general idea than in the details of its realization
YES NO

You tend to be unbiased even if this might endanger
your good relations with people
YES NO

Strict observance of the established rules is likely to prevent a good outcome
YES NO

It's difficult to get you excited
YES NO

It is in your nature to assume responsibility
YES NO

You often think about humankind and its destiny
YES NO

You believe the best decision is one that can be easily changed
YES NO

Objective criticism is always useful in any activity
YES NO

You prefer to act immediately rather than speculate
about various options
YES NO

You trust reason rather than feelings
YES NO

You are inclined to rely more on improvisation
than on careful planning
YES NO

You spend your leisure time actively socializing
with a group of people, attending parties, shopping, etc.
YES NO

You usually plan your actions in advance
YES NO

Your actions are frequently influenced by emotions
YES NO

You are a person somewhat reserved and distant in communication
YES NO

You know how to put every minute of your
time to good purpose
YES NO

You readily help people while asking nothing in return
YES NO

You often contemplate about the complexity of life
YES NO

After prolonged socializing you feel you need
to get away and be alone
YES NO

You often do jobs in a hurry
YES NO

You easily see the general principle behind
specific occurrences
YES NO

You frequently and easily express your feelings and emotions
YES NO

You find it difficult to speak loudly
YES NO

You get bored if you have to read theoretical books
YES NO

You tend to sympathize with other people
YES NO

You value justice higher than mercy
YES NO

You rapidly get involved in social life
at a new workplace
YES NO

The more people with whom you speak, the better you feel
YES NO

You tend to rely on your experience rather than
on theoretical alternatives
YES NO

You like to keep a check on how things
are progressing
YES NO

You easily empathize with the concerns of other people
YES NO

Often you prefer to read a book than go to a party
YES NO

You enjoy being at the center of events in which
other people are directly involved
YES NO

You are more inclined to experiment than
to follow familiar approaches
YES NO

You avoid being bound by obligations
YES NO

You are strongly touched by the stories about people's troubles
YES NO

Deadlines seem to you to be of relative, rather than absolute, importance
YES NO

You prefer to isolate yourself from outside noises
YES NO

It's essential for you to try things with your own hands
YES NO

You think that almost everything can be analyzed
YES NO

You do your best to complete a task on time
YES NO

You take pleasure in putting things in order
YES NO

You feel at ease in a crowd
YES NO

You have good control over your desires and temptations
YES NO

You easily understand new theoretical principles
YES NO

The process of searching for solution is more
important to you than the solution itself
YES NO

You usually place yourself nearer to the side
than in the center of the room
YES NO

When solving a problem you would rather follow
a familiar approach than seek a new one
YES NO

You try to stand firmly by your principles
YES NO

A thirst for adventure is close to your heart
YES NO

You prefer meeting in small groups to interaction
with lots of people
YES NO

When considering a situation you pay more attention to
the current situation and less to a possible sequence of events
YES NO

You consider the scientific approach to be the best
YES NO

You find it difficult to talk about your feelings
YES NO

You often spend time thinking of how things
could be improved
YES NO

Your decisions are based more on the feelings
of a moment than on the careful planning
YES NO

You prefer to spend your leisure time alone
or relaxing in a tranquil family atmosphere
YES NO

You feel more comfortable sticking to
conventional ways
YES NO

You are easily affected by strong emotions
YES NO

You are always looking for opportunities
YES NO

Your desk, workbench etc. is usually neat and orderly
YES NO

As a rule, current preoccupations worry
you more than your future plans
YES NO

You get pleasure from solitary walks
YES NO

It is easy for you to communicate in social situations
YES NO

You are consistent in your habits
YES NO

You willingly involve yourself in matters
which engage your sympathies
YES NO

You easily perceive various ways
in which events could develop
YES NO

EclipseOwner387 said...

ColdFish,

Wikipedia is the definitley the expert. Thanks. I mean opinions are the real thing right? I have heard democrats and republicans debate issues and by the time they are done they both sound right. But because people opine, doesn't make it so. Get a clue oh fish of wet and cold. If MB was so bad it would have been banned by now!!! You are reaching!!!!!! And it is funny to see you try so hard quite frankly. Noone is protected more than the employee. Since our laws allow personality tests for employement, then this is nothing at all. Maybe you are Stan trying to be a fish to protect his lame post? Just kidding - but it seems that is the way you guys always think! Actually I am EB and Ken. Just felt I needed some help since the world was against me so I invented these other guys. Maybe I do have multiple personalities afterall. Ok, back to my studies!

:-)

EclipseOwner387 said...

Pirep on the cookout,

The weather was EXCELLENT! The food was GREAT! The wine was Californian! Let's give a round of applause for Californian wines!!! Those guys have this art down pat! And best of all, I needed GTOWN to win the game and they did! Woohoo!

UNC was awesome by the way - sad to see them bow out this way.

Nite all!

Stan Blankenship said...

As a reminder, this was the original question:

"Perhaps those with more knowledge of psychiatry and psych testing can fill us in with details regarding of the purpose of the test being proposed for all Eclipse pilots."

Now the blog is being accused of overreacting to a test that is innocuous and meaningless even though it has been hyped as an important component in the Eclipse training curriculum.

Which way does the Eclipse crowd want this viewed, meaningless or important?

eo387,

Suspect if you send lumar your shirt size, he could arrange one for you. Actually, I would spring for the cost of one for Ken and eb as well if they just send their shirt sizes.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Not trying hard EO, just wanted to keep the discussion on layman's terms for the benefit of the Kool-Aid impaired.

You CHOOSE not see what others CHOOSE to see as a threat to the rest of us. Just like the User Fee discussion has gone from Vern's hyperbolic prognostications to a threat to ALL OF US.

The real issue here is known as the Law of Unintended Consequence, look it up in the dictionary of your choice.

preacher said...

Texas has some good wines, too. IMHO.

Planet eX said...

Concerning personality tests, I've only seen them once in employment endeavors...that was for the Dallas Police Department in the early 1980's. I haven't been asked to take once since and that includes jobs that entailed a DOD Secret clearance (which I currently hold).

Now why is Eclipse requiring them when neither Flight Safety nor CAE/SimuFlite (the two largest corporate aviation training companies) require them for a type rating?

EclipseOwner387 said...

Stan,

It sounds like it is to help instructors be more efficient. You guys want to make it big brother. Something simple and effective(used by a majority of fortune 100 firms I might add) is now a sinister plot by Eclipse. It is just a crazy claim and a reach by you and the blog. Let's move on... What else do you have up your sleeve? The Eclipse depositors are not concerned by this. Give us your next "scoop."

Enjoying the blog but this one doesn't really have any meat.

Bring on one of Gunner's peasant meals (that sounded delicious by the way!)

Now I am really going to bed. Ken and EB... You have the con.

PS:

Preacher, give me some recommendations. I will be in Texas in two weeks. I have not had any Lone Star vino but looking forward to trying it!

gadfly said...

I’m schizophrenic and so am I, and the paranoids are after me . . . they’re everywhere! Now, may I have my license back? . . . I’ve got to get back to Roswell before “they” leave me here.

Gunner said...

EO said:
"It sounds like it is to help instructors be more efficient."

EO-
You're a reasonable guy, I think. I hope I am, too, in context of my comments on Eclipse's absolute right to administer this test.

Just between us two reasonable guys (or anyone else who can answer), I've stated 3 times here that the test MIGHT be useful IF the Trainers and Mentor Pilots were schooled in its ramifications and in tailoring their training to the results.

Is there any evidence that this is happening or does the "personality test" simply hang off the program like an appendix or an earlobe? Based on Ken's detailed response (a link to the Eclipse Marketing Literature), it's as integral to the program as algebra studies to divorce rates.

So why does Eclipse TOUT it? I think that's the real question on the floor here.
Gunner

EclipseBlogger said...

Stan said... Which way does the Eclipse crowd want this viewed, meaningless or important?

Stan, you made like this was some new revelation that was going to change the discussion of the blog or perception of Eclipse. It was/is a non-event. The test is whatever you want make of it. It may be a reasonable tool to customize training and education, then again maybe not. I have to experience there, but I'll try anything once. To me, it's a lot of BS, and the discussion and concern around here is really reaching for "Unintended Consequence" by Eclipse requiring the test.

What else you got?

Gunner said...

"What else you got?"

1 billion.
Two Planes.
Grounded Fleet.
Windows cracking.
Wing Spars loosening.
No FIKI.
No RVSM.
Avio DOA.
1,000, err 500, oops 400 Planes in '07....two in the first 3 months.

And you ask, "What else you got?"?????

ROTFLMAO!

Ask VERN!

Gunner

Metal Guy said...

What else you got?

Apparently Eclipse has about as much new as the blog has had in the last week.

Nothing, really...

Nada.

Zip.

Zilch.

(Oh, except the blog is not another $7,000,000.00 in debt)

Metal Guy said...

Unlike Eclipse.

bill e. goat said...

Lots of interesting comment about the Myers-Briggs test.

EO387 said:

I have used these tests for hiring employees over the years. It helps me better understand how to communicate with them and what their natural tendencies are. If a pilot shows a lack of attention to detail then the instructor could focus on that tendency and HELP the pilot see how to overcome it. This should help pilots be better pilots. Is it overkill - maybe. But it is an interesting way to get a snapshot of the natural personality traits of an individual you are about to train and should give the instructors a jump start.

Well put, me thinks. A useful tool, but not a regulatory issue.

bill e. goat said...

VMC said:

The Myers-Briggs personality type indicator test is designed to help understand what makes a person "tick". To effectively train anyone, a little information about how they function in daily life outside of the cockpit is very useful. It helps the instructors and it helps the student--no harm comes from learning how to more effectively communicate with differing personality types.

Also, well put.

bill e. goat said...

Gunner said:

I don't know that anyone is arguing that it's not "useful". I certainly am not. We're concerned about it being mandatory.

Goat says:

Good point, but I do think it will be.

Gunner says:
I guess I'm confused. Is the Myers-Briggs test only mandated by Eclipse as part of the Training Program or is it also now an FAA Requirement to fly the jet?

Goat says: I think only Eclipse.

bill e. goat said...

NerdE says:
NerdE says:
I'm arguing that it's not useful. As an example, consider Army Ranger or SEALs. These guys are "A-type", assertive, leadership personalities. Through extensive training, they learn to work as a team. If you only looked at their test results, you would dismiss the idea of putting these guys in the same group.

Goat says: Well, hmmm. The SEAL fellows are often atributed to being "type A" guys, and I guess they are, but the Myers-Briggs thing, doesn't have an "A" type.

I'm wondering out loud here, what is the mix of Myers-Briggs types in the special ops? These guys are all highly-capable, highly motivated folks, but I think it would be interesting to see what the mix is.

I don't know, but I would imagine the spec-ops guys use this test, or something like it, to enhance their training- any one know about this?

bill e. goat said...

Flying Wolf said:

If a test is used for lowering your insurance it can also be used to raise or deny you insurance.

GOAT:
I don't think it is used to adjust YOUR price of insurance, because the insurance company doesn't care what your benchmarks are (probably a better choice of terminology); they just want to know Eclipse used it to optimize the training YOU receive.

FW:
It can also be used by the FAA of any lawyer in a lawsuit. Bet on it. Its one thing to have to take for ones occupation, its quite another to have to take for ones hobby.

I don't think so. The only thing pertinent in a court of law would be
1)Whether you have met the training requirements set forth by the manufacturer
2) Whether you have met the training requirements set forth by the FAA

FW:I still go back to Vern's guarantee that if you don't qualify, they won't sell you a jet. I see a bunch of test flunkers

GOAT:
I think this might have been a ploy by Vern to "discourage sales" as odd as that sounds- he probably wanted to discourage some elements. I guess. Sounds weird, but I can't think of any other reason. (I don't think he'll be using it to do price gouging, that would get Eclipse a bad rap with the folks that so far, haven't raised much of a stink, but have the capability, and reason, to do so if provoked).

bill e. goat said...

Thanks to KAD1/CAD1 for the interesting link to the Eclipse metrics test:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

Okay, I took it. I was a little skeptical, and while taking it, was thinking "That's a stupid question" several times- some didn't seem to have a real A-or-B answer, but were too situation-specific sensitive. I filled it out anyway.

For your viewing pleasure (and since I don't know any of you, yet anyway):

ENFJ: Idealist/Teacher (I think).

Extravert 1
Intuitive 12
Feeling 12
Judging 67

Don't quite know what it all means, but I guess the fact one number seems to stand out is a definite indicator, of something.

I have to admit, the summary of ENFJ seemed to fit me, when I reflected upon it.

(As a sort of unintentional confirmation, I was looking up the descriptions, and got the letters scrambled, and was reading something that I thought did NOT sound like me, and sure enough, I was reading the wrong description. Not overly scientific, but some sort of confirmation, perhaps).


CWMOR said:
Academic psychologists have criticized the indicator in research literature, claiming that it "lacks convincing validity data".

GOAT: True, but the criticism sounds like a bunch of academics complaining that "it can't be measured". Well, there is an old saying, "If it can't be measured, it's not real". I think personality differences ARE real, and since nobody seems to have a better alternative other than "NONE", I guess this is what we are stuck with.


Planet ex said:
Now why is Eclipse requiring them when neither Flight Safety nor CAE/SimuFlite (the two largest corporate aviation training companies) require them for a type rating?

GOAT: I suspect, the idea is tied to the original marketing scheme, mass sales to air taxi co's. (I'm not defending the viability of that, just saying how it relates to the testing). Several have mentioned it is useful in an airline environment, when the pilot and copilot might not be familiar with each other. I suppose the same was true for what was fancifully conceptualized as an air taxi company, operating hundreds of aircraft.

Gunner says:
So why does Eclipse TOUT it? I think that's the real question on the floor here.
Gunner

GOAT: Perhaps the idea was just inhereted with United training plan.

bill e. goat said...

Vern:
Q1 12
Q2 59
Q3 120
Q4 211
TOTAL 402

A37:
Q1 - 2
Q2 - 8
Q3 - 12
Q4 - 18
TOTAL 40

I think A37 might be a bit optimistic- Vern is just plain mystic- ha.

bill e. goat said...

Gunner said (context- hypothetical court of law):

'Under stress, ISTJs may fall into "catastrophe mode", where they see nothing but all of the possibilities of what could go wrong.....They will lose their ability to see things calmly and reasonably, and will depress themselves with their visions of doom.'
Ladies and Gentlemen, I rest my case"

Gunner said (not sure if this quote was hypothetical or actual):

"Because the world of feelings and values is not where the ENTJ naturally functions, they may sometimes make value judgments and hold onto submerged emotions which are ill-founded and inappropriate, and will cause them problems - sometimes rather serious problems.

"ENTJs are often "larger than life" in describing their projects or proposals. This ability may be expressed as salesmanship, story-telling facility...

When challenged, the ENTJ may by reflex become argumentative."

If the shoe fits, remember you're the one that claimed it. ;-)
Gunner

GOAT says: Gunner, I think your shoes are "well ventilated" again.

:))))))))))))

bill e. goat said...

Gadfly said:

I’m schizophrenic and so am I, and the paranoids are after me . . . they’re everywhere! Now, may I have my license back? . . . I’ve got to get back to Roswell before “they” leave me here.

GOAT says:
"Just because you think they're out to get you, doesn't mean they're not."

I'm starting to imagine Gunner around every door :)))))))))))

bill e. goat said...

EO387 said to Lumar:
Anyway, if you think it determines mental illness you have been misinformed.

GOAT: Lumar, like many Europeans, probably thinks we're all a bunch of fruits anyway, and the MBI is useful in telling the oranges, apples, and bananas apart :)))))

I must say, many Americans would also agree with Lumar...

I prefer to think of myself as PEACHY, thank you.

bill e. goat said...

Ken said:
You don't actually "pass" or "fail" a Myers-Briggs test. It's a profile, intended to help the pilot understand how he approaches various situations.

Gunner says:
I've stated 3 times here that the test MIGHT be useful IF the Trainers and Mentor Pilots were schooled in its ramifications and in tailoring their training to the results.

I must be tired- time to got to bed (I SOUNDS like Ken and Gunner are agreeing!) :)))))

lumar said...

Good morning, Gentlemen!

EO387 said to me:

Anyway, if you think it determines mental illness you have been misinformed.

Re: I do not think so, but a frustrated Eclipse-Investor CAN get very depressed...


GOAT said to me:

Lumar, like many Europeans, probably thinks we're all a bunch of fruits anyway...

Re: I just say: We all in aviation are a bit 'special', no?

JetProp Jockey said...

Posted on AVWeb this morning:

DayJet Ready To Train Pilots
DayJet, the on-demand charter operator that is Eclipse’s biggest customer, hopes to get its first Eclipse 500 in April and start training its pilots. According to CharterX, a charter industry trade journal, the start-up has received FAA approval for its pilot-training program and just needs airplanes to train them on. Co-founder Ed Iacobucci told CharterX the first four of its 239 Eclipses will be used to get pilots type rated. "After that, as more aircraft are delivered, we'll use those for our customers." Iacobucci said delays in getting the Eclipse to market haven’t shaken his confidence in the airplane. “If we don't get our first couple of aircraft from Eclipse soon, I'll have to change our launch date, again,” he said. “But believe me, I don't think I've been sold down the river. Eclipse has had problems but I know they are being fixed and the aircraft is a good plane. I have every confidence in the product and that it will meet our customer's needs."

preacher said...

http://www.llanowine.com/

Choose your favorite from the selection at Llano Estacado Winery, Lubbock TX.