Sunday, July 01, 2007


Looking Back


While waiting for some forward progress in ABQ, the blog has been looking back.

In the last post, flyger questioned the Vern's wisdom in choosing to develop and certify so many new aspects for the Eclipse. In a later comment he asked the question, "Why did they choose to make a proprietary avionics system, and why did they stick with Avidyne so long?"

Today in a follow up rumination from bill e. goat:

As I see more and more projects, poorly planned and executed, I become less giddy about technology for technology's sake, I believe that this was just another monumental abysmal NASA failure. (Like their other GAPS program: electronic ignition and fuel injection. Like Jap cars and motorcycles had 20 years earlier). Can you say international space station (1)(Wikipedia estimates $130B total; or just say 1000% overbudget, and 500% behind schedule, and much reduced capability from original plan. No wonder Vern is so chummy with the feds- kindred spirits).

In the same vein, thanks to Pubgrubber for the SATS link, I'll come back to that one later.

Anyway, the engine was paid for by some foggy combination of NASA, Williams, and Eclipse funds. As I understand it, NASA funded the program, uh, but never required a flight test. Because, the story goes, Eclipse agreed to use it. NASA considered that to fulfill the intent of the GAPS jet program- to create a light weight, low cost jet engine for the commercial market. Maybe they should have used a little extra thought, and stipulated that it had to be a working engine. Whatever, the feds bailed (after proclaiming victory), and figured Eclipse would pick up the tab for making the damn thing work.

The only thing “revolutionary” about the E-500 is the engine, and to screw the competition, Vern wanted exclusive rights to the engine. Williams wanted to sell thousands of engines, Vern promised a market, so Williams agreed to grant exclusive right to Eclipse, in exchange for Eclipse funding, and presumably an Eclipse guarantee to use Williams engines exclusively.

Why did Eclipse dump Williams? Good question. Did the Eclipse outgrow it- even before the first-first flight (2002)? I'm not sure- this is pretty screwy- like ALL of Eclipse's machinations. What IS sure, is the first-first flight was a stunt by Vern to lock in the customer deposits. Much like the second-first flight, in 2004, was a stunt to trigger some investor funding.

Why didn't Vern just let Williams have 18 months to develop the EJ-22??? Maybe he knew even if it did work, it couldn't keep up with the weight growth of the airframe. Williams isn't a bunch of yahoos- I think they could have got the engine to work, at least up to the original spec. As it is now, I believe Eclipse has some sort of lock on the rights to the engine, even if they never use it. Your tax dollars at work- thank you very much, NASA morons (2).

Regarding Avidyne, the blog had a lot of discussion a few months ago. I think the prevailing view was, Avidyne had been working for free on the Eclipse suite since 2003, in hopes of making some money on volume deliveries. My gut feel is after a couple of years of non-performance by Eclipse, they scaled back spending, expecting Eclipse to fold- for Avidyne, why throw good money after bad?

I suspect Vern was too cheap to foot the bill for truly adequate product development by Avidyne (and Williams)- just look at the idiotic, pathetically under scoped and unrealistic development and certification plan (and manufacturing, and QC efforts), and I think the customers will find, pathetically under scoped customer support facilities (witness, the idiotically mismanaged training program). Disruptive technology? Hey Vern, here's some disruptive input- get a clue! Better yet, Board of Directors: Get a clue- and a new CEO!

(I think the BOD is afraid of sacking Vern- that would make the enterprise look troubled, and they are desperately hoping he can sell some more snake oil to other gullible types, to keep fresh cash coming in).

(1) Credit where credit is due. The ISS does keep other countries “on board” with the USA, and that serves to stymie Russian and Chinese power projection. As a tool of foreign influence, it makes a valuable contribution, which is the ONLY thing the civilian pace program has ever really been anyway, idealistic pretensions aside, but a valuable tool. Could the money have been better spent? Well,...Just think how many 200 ft statues of Cheney holding a 6-pack and a shotgun we could have built).

(2) Let's go to the moon- or Mars! Just send money- don't worry, we'll tell you when to stop. Funny (not ha-ha funny) how NASA seems to have researchers for everything, astrophysics, life science, materials, aerodynamics. Everything EXCEPT finance. NASA ought to be called the agency of self-promotion.

Pretty cranky stuff for a beautiful Sunday- no more blogging for me today- just gets me aggravated to see Vern pissing away time and money while pandering for more money, while pawning deficient platforms, all the while he KNOWS they are deficient. If he had the guts, he'd just say “time out for 8 months- Eclipse is going to get this right the first time” (well, make that the second or third or fourth time). Reality, Honesty?- Not the cup of tea for P.T. Raburn.

144 comments:

Ken Meyer said...

Yawn...

Lots of words, but no substance here any more.

I just got back from Costco. Gotta update my simulator's processor and display to prepare for delivery of the plane the naysayers said I'd never get :)

Ken

Gunner said...

I don't think anybody said you'd never get a plane; just that, like David Crowe and Mike Press, you'd not get the plane you thought you were buying. ;-)

So, tell us, are they delivering you a "simulated" plane to fly for your new simulator, Ken? ;-) Whatever treats that there Jet Jock Itch, I guess.
Gunner

mirage00 said...

Ken, you beat me to the yawn.

Conspiracy, Cover up, Scam... makes Watergate look like Disneyland. Good thing we have Stan and company on the case.

Ken congrats on your pending arrival.

I remain thoroughly amused

double 00

Gunner said...

Amused that Ken thinks he's getting a revolutionary jet?

Me, too. After all, "That's the beauty of it". :-D
Gunner

flightguy said...

Lot's of amusement from the faithful, but I didn't read any denials.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Word on the street was the PWC paid to develop the engines on the Eclipse 500. The proposals were in works before the fateful EJ-22 was first flown. By Vern's own omission, Williams didn't want to pay for development.

Avidyne was probably another of the same repeat in events. The promised darkened skies with E500s never came to fruition. They were another victim of the winner's curse. (Be careful what you ask for)From the look of things, Eclipse was working on replacing Avidyne for quite some time. That is why Avio NfG was publicly announced on the fast track.

mouse said...

Right-o Flightguy!

P&WC committed to financing the engine with Canadian taxpayer dollars in the amount of $52M by giving Eclipse the money if they could fly the plane before the end of the year, hence the 12/31/2004 1st flight. If Eclipse did nt fly P&WC would have owned Eclipse.

Vern forced the flight, thier chief test pilot stepped aside due to the poor decisions and total disregard for prudent safety, and Vern got his $52M.

The next step in the process is for Eclipse to fund the engine development by sending back the $52M in installments.

P&WC and their government even certified the engine before it was 100% complete (no working FADEC at the time of cert, but no deliveries so they looked away) so that P&WC executives and the top Canadian government officials all got their "We Did It Just Like We Said We Would!" bonuses...

Yes, bizzare, yet true. And yes Mirage, I was there for it...

PS. It's a duck...

mouse said...

I noticed Ken is now O2 deprived, yet Mirage is only amused... Must be the embylical cord is kinked...

mirage00 said...

One question to the "brilliant" bashers out there...

Where is that "revolutionary" Williams EJ22 engine today? If it worked, how can someone get their hands on it? Oh yeah, another conspiracy by Vern. It just disappeared.

Ponder that for a while.

I remain amused.

double 00

mirage00 said...

Engine Story

Let the bashing begin

I remain amused

double 00

flightguy said...

"00"

Thanks for reconfirming everything that was said. Eclipse took the PWC money, the plane wasn't ready, and they needed more thrust (900+ verses 700). The hired gun was bought to axe the program while Eclipse bought time. Even the expert said 2 years, Williams would have the issues resolved. How many more years did it take to certify that band-aided A/C? How many more years are still required to finish the plane that was sold? Why wasn't the FJ33 used? ---TIME my friend, TIME and MONEY AT THE EXPENSE OF THE DEPOSITORS.

airtaximan said...

"Eclipse -- the Engine Story"

Story...

All that's missing is:

"once upon a time..."
and
"they lived happily ever after"

My favorite line is the last one, where every single customer chose Pratt, over all the other manufacturers. 100%. All of them. Not one said they would prefer another engine company.

BS. Total BS.
- plus, anyone who thinks this "story" is true, would need to believe the entire program for a revolutionary jet aircraft, just "waited for it to show up, install it, and run it..." with no supplier management, no program status and no prior testing. Irresponsible, dumb, and not even realistic. e-clips had their own VP Propulsion - what did Harness do for 4 years, sit on his ass?

Perhaps he helped make up the "story".

What a joke.

Ken Meyer said...

double 00

Thanks for the interesting article that outlines some of the problems in the EJ-22.

Wikipedia has these words on what ultimately became of the failed EJ-22/FJ-22 engine design:

"According to Williams International's announcements at the 2006 National Business Aviation Conference, the FJ22 production line has been suspended indefinitely. This engine did have great potential but fell behind schedule and was dropped from the Eclipse program. Without any funding, what potentially could have become a revolutionary turbofan for small jets had to be scrapped altogether."

Such a great engine, the company killed it when Eclipse pulled out despite all its potential and all the new VLJ entrants screaming for small engines. Certainly sounds like Williams, too, realized the design was hopelessly flawed.

Soon-to-be Eclipse pilots can be thankful Eclipse management divorced the company from the failed powerplant just as we can be thankful for the Avidyne divorce. Along those lines, recall that the naysayers predicted Avio NG would never be done this year. But, surprise! According to this Flight International article 4 days ago, we will all probably get a firsthand look at Avio NG installed in an Eclipse 500 at Oshkosh later this month. What do you know? :)

Ken

flightguy said...

Ken,

From what I know about business, suppliers don't make parts or components when there is no market. I would assume the same is especially true for a 700 lb thrust engine.How many dinosaurs think they can build planes that small?

JetProp Jockey said...

Ken Said:

Soon-to-be Eclipse pilots can be thankful Eclipse management divorced the company from the failed powerplant just as we can be thankful for the Avidyne divorce. Along those lines, recall that the naysayers predicted Avio NG would never be done this year. But, surprise! According to this Flight International article 4 days ago, we will all probably get a firsthand look at Avio NG installed in an Eclipse 500 at Oshkosh later this month. What do you know? :)

There is a big differnece between showing up at Oshkosh with a panel and having the flight deck certified.

Remember the Pitot - Vern said, just a couple weeks - we already have the solution. Now it is 13 weeks later and hoping for an approval somtime this month . . . or is that next month. In June it was next month, but now that is July, next month is August.

Ken Meyer said...

flightguy wrote,

"suppliers don't make parts or components when there is no market."

Advances in propulsion have for a hundred years been the primary driving force in new designs. If the engines worked as advertised, they could probably foster the development of a 4-place twin PLJ. Heck, I think the D-Jet would probably be a more compelling design with two FJ22s than its single 1400lb thrust FJ33-4.

I assume the reason no manufacturer has latched onto the engine is that it doesn't work as advertised.

Ken

airtaximan said...

JPJ,

"Certainly sounds like Williams, too, realized the design was hopelessly flawed"

What a dumb comment. Ken should know by now, a design is not "hoplessly flawed"... it can be dressed up, fixed up, NG'ed, repaired. promised, revised, and changed...until it is finished.

... right Ken?

The only problem with the technology demonstrator that e-clips bought hook line and sinker is it was never finished. For a plane designed "for and engine" it was perfoect.

For a market...w ell, that's another story completely, now isn't it?

sparky said...

From the engine story

"An informal survey we took among a hundred of our customers -- we admit, we didn't do it scientifically -- gave us an interesting result," Raburn added. "We asked them, among the four -- GE, Rolls-Royce, Honeywell, and Pratt & Whitney -- which they would prefer to power their airplanes (assuming all manufacturers could do it), which would they pick. 100% -- really, every one -- picked Pratt." So did Eclipse.

Do you guys realize that you'd be flying a certified fully functioning certified aircraft, right now, if they'd have used the same type of logic when it came to the avionics suite?

flightguy said...

Ken,

How many twin PLJs have you seen or heard of in devlopment? ZERO ---TOO expensive and thirsty for the "owner" market. That is why the single engine market is taking off.

If Eclipse is making another jet on the lower end, will it have more smaller engines? No, ridiculous comment. The PWC would be a single.

Bonanza Pilot said...

The Williams engines were the Eclipse revolution..that was it...without them you don't have revolutionary low operating expenses, and thus no air taxi market. When the Williams engines died (and I agree they were a very flawed product) so should have the Eclipse.

There was too much money to let that happen though..so instead we have a continuing story where they try harder and harder to make this a revolutionary jet. Friction stir welding (yawn - to quote Ken and M00) Avio and Avio NG - pretty cool if they work, but don't make for lower fuel burn or better performance.

Once they strapped the Pratts onto the Eclipse it became a pretty cool mini-mustang. If they had gone with the G1000 (and conventional circuit breakers etc) it would be flying around now - and at the price they need to charge would sell in the hundreds....but they needed a story about thousands to justify the billion dollar investment. Thus we have to keep listening to these crazy stories about how this plane creates an entire new market and will sell in the thousands. I have one very simple question that I have never heard a good answer to...what is the revolution that Eclipse is using, and nobody else is, that allows them to sell a jet for 1 million bucks less than the competition?

quack, quack...yep it's a duck.

hummer said...

Breakeven is at $1.5 million at 500 units/year. Where the company makes the money is on JetIncomplete because virtually all service will be software controlled. Do you see any mechanic training? That can be the only explanation.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Why has nobody else used the FJ-22?

Because at 770 LBT it is not big enough for anyone's planned products. The Eclipse design parameters were set by the EJ-22, not the other way around.

Was the EJ-22 flawed? Maybe, but it certainly was immature and it was so small (physically) that it had very critical, critical tolerances. Understand, the EJ-22 was a 3-spool engine, 3. The development of the RB211 3-spool engine nearly bankrupted Rolls-Royce back in the day.

Eclipse PAID Williams for the EJ-22 development, even after the divorce, from what I have heard, somewhere near $80M, or about 10% of the blown development budget.

In other words, what the faithful need to understand is that the Eclipse 500 was a POINT DESIGN intended for the thrust the EJ-22 could provide - most airframers create a design and then spec engines that will meet what the airframe needs - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

The 500 was too heavy for the EJ's, and Eclipse knew it could not control weight well enough to make the EJ's work, so the EJ's were bumped up (10% is a lot more power to pull out of any engine, let alone something as tiny and complex as the EJ).

The issue with the EJ's was schedule - who set the schedule? Eclipse.

Eclipse has always had, and continues to have, serious difficulty in estimating what it will take to do basically anything.

How did they get a 2 year reprieve due to the engine issues and STILL fail to deliver avionics? Because they either failed completely to manage the Avidyne program, or they CONTRIBUTED directly to the issues by failing to effectively manage the program, perhaps failed to provide a complete specification, maybe there was significant feature creep.

Now we hear there will be an Avio NfG aircraft at OSH and the faithful rejoice and again proclaim the pending demise of this blog.

I myself predicted there would be an Avio NfG PROTOTYPE at OSH, I said it over a month ago I believe, Vern has GOT to show some progress to avoid a revolt among the unsecured investors, errr, I mean owners, err I mean position holders.

We have said the full feature set will not be certified this year, and I stand behind that.

What was not mentioned in all the PR and spin is that IS&S has no relevant experience in designing CONTROL, they are a DISPLAY company. Now, they have been tasked to design control and integration systems they have not had to provide before and guess what, Vern has already announced, quietly, a schedule slip.

What do they do to make it up to the customers? They announce MORE features for the EFB - MORE schedule risk, MORE capital required, MORE certification effort.

They never learn.

The faithful might be swayed by Vern's penchant for prestidigitation, but experienced and knowledgeable folks know it is all smoke and mirrors.

This program is dead, it just doesn't know it yet.

BTW, I have heard that the $400M they are seeking now is definitely NOT for a new product and there are no serious development programs in work - this is all to continue funding the 500.

$300M here, $50 bridge loan there, $150 round over there, pretty soon we are talking real money.

If they do close a $400M round and the situation is anywhere near as dire as those of us who have actually been through development programs suspect (or as Kamm's letter about no color copies, USPS vs FedEx, approved travel only and free pop would suggest), then the early investors will be SIGNIFICANTLY diluted (including the employees who traded pay for options).

If I were Mann and Kresa, I would be feeling the pucker factor about now, what good is 50% of a smoking hole?

BD5 Believer said...

Ken and M00

My guess is you are both waiting for your final BD5 kits to arrive so you can finish the wonder plane of the 70's!

Let's keep it real and see some real data on real aircraft, until then this is just the BD5 with updated expectations for the 21st century.

Could Vern realy just be Jim Bede with a better hair cut?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

BTW, I think I have finally figured out what the core competency actually is at Eclipse.

Most airframers have a core competency, Cessna is product design and intriduction, Lear is performance and value, Hawker-Beechcraft is composites.

Based on careful review of promises made and missed, guarantees made and miised, schedules made and missed, budgets made and missed, IOU's made and missed, 'vendor' failures, and a total lack of self-imposed accountability, I believe Eclipse's core competency appears to be INCOMPETENCY and that is a shame, they coulda been a contender, they coulda been somebody.

The real lesson from Eclipse is that without focused and experienced LEADERSHIP at the top, no amount of talented and dedicated people (and they did assemble a tremendous team) can achieve greatness.

Gunner said...

Ken said:
"we will all probably get a firsthand look at Avio NG installed in an Eclipse 500 at Oshkosh later this month."

And hopefully, it'll be available right next to the Moller Booth so you won't have to walk far to take in ALL of "Tomorrow's Promises". ;-)
Gunner

cj3driver said...

Eclipse reported in June 05 BC&A that the cost of the PW610F's were "about" $150,000 each (05 dollars). I assume this is in volume production(as in 2,000 units per year). Figure today at $350K to $400K per plane, or more without volume rebates. Eclipse 500's are going out the door right now at $995 base price.

mirage00 said...

The faithful might be swayed by Vern's penchant for prestidigitation, but experienced and knowledgeable folks know it is all smoke and mirrors.

Also appropriately referred to as “Dinosaurs of the industry”

I remain amused.

double 00

Gunner said...

CJ-
Yes, you're correct. Also provides a bit-o-insight as to certain motivations around here. We had been under the impression that Ken was in the serial number 11XX range. Turns out (according to his post here), he's at the front of the line.

Imagine: A better-than-Mustang Jet for under a million bucks. Little wonder that he keeps his cheerleader outfit at the ready. Of course, it does make one wonder why he's made the cavalier comments about purchasing his wife a Mustang at THREE TIMES the price of his Eclipse purchase.

I, mean, I understand that money's no object for some people....but let's fact it, would you even consider a Phenom 100 at Three Times the price of your CJ3?

Still...his choice, his money. I wish you luck with Le Petit, Ken. Honestly do.
Gunner

flightguy said...

Gunner,

You would if you are selling you E500 at a premium to get another aircraft, like the Mustang.

Gunner said...

fg-
Then again you wouldn't if you were financially stretching to buy Le Petit at a million and would have to come up with a second million after selling it to come up to Price of Admission for the Mustang.

This is not the issue with Ken, however. He can obviously afford the Eclipse for himself and the Mustang for Shari. Which truly makes him an Eclipse True Believer.
Gunner

airtaximan said...

I seem to remmember someone here saying "look for a bunch of deliveries beefore the end of June - they always make deliveries at the end of the monet to make their numbers"

Did I miss something?

mouse said...

Flightguy,

Dr. Willimas offered the FJ33 for the exact same price per pound of trust and Vern got pissed. Vern wanted 950 Lbs of thrust for the 770 Lb price...

mouse said...

Missing IQ (M00) the FJ22 is running, and has been for 5 years in a sealed test cell (i.e. Dark Program) The engine works fine, as advertised. It's design is not the most robust, but this is due to the fact that when you scale an engine so small key components like compressor and turbine blades become very thin, like the fingernail on a pinky finger. The PJ22 version would be the ideal use of this engine where inlet air filtration is "more" likely to preclude fod damage from little things like ice, sand grit, bug wings, Etc.

Amusing is how I would describe you too... Open mouth insert O2 deprived foot while claiming to be so sure...

mouse said...

Airtaxi, Harness is no brain trust, that's why Vern promoted him using the peter-principal to the max.

One should be carful to not speak about something they do not know...

You intitled to your opinion, however it has no basis.

Virtually every single new advanced airplane flies on Williams power.

But hey, the facts don't help your cause, so why go there, huh?

mouse said...

Ken, anyone can install anything in an airplane, period. Pass certification and get it approved on a standard flight certificate is a whole nother matter...

mouse said...

Ken, your comment about the 4 place airplane is the smartest thing you have ever stated, kudos!

The problem is your "Daddy" Vern grew the plane way to much to fly on 770 Lbs unless they installed 3 engines, which we discussed seriously for a few weeks.

Vern and the investors/customers/depositors, Etc. have only themselves to blame for these shortcomings.

You bought one plane and then Vern slight-of-handed changed it 101% to try and justify his production numbers to try and justify the insane price...

You have only yourself for allowing Vern/Eclipse for going astray without being held accountable!

mouse said...

ColdWet,

Eclipse was paying Williams $2.5M per month for development of the EJ22. Vern controlled the FADEC to try and corner the market even more than the 2 years of exclusivity Williams gave them (2 years following certification)

Vern knew 2 years was not enough because the whole production scheme was "Not Exactly" going to pan out.

The FADEC never (as in not ever) worked properly and Eclipse pissed away nearly $18M on it's failed development.

Dr. Williams was too much of a gentleman to expose the ringer Vern had drug him through. Too bad, because this let the spoiled rotten brat get even worse.

mirage00 said...

the FJ22 is running, and has been for 5 years in a sealed test cell (i.e. Dark Program) The engine works fine, as advertised.

Sure it is...

Like a mouse finding the cheese.

I remain amused

double 00

mouse said...

By the way, wait a bit longer... The P&WC610F does not allow for any weight growth, so once again Eclipse will have backed themselves into a corner.

More engine = more fuel, more fuel = more weight, more weight = more wing, more wing = more thrust, more thrust = ..... It's called the death spiral, and too bad it affects so many hopeful depositors...

mouse said...

Mirage, if ignorance is bliss you must be in euphoria!

Amuse yourself a bit more, and have a nice evening.

fred said...

i remain confused ....

i knew (it's kind of a job for my living) that credit and cash were not that difficult to find in USA ....

(remenber the "good old days" a bit back when anyone could borrow for less than inflation ?? or that californian advertisisng , someone coming really to a mirror , the voice-off saying if you can moist a mirror you can get a loan with us !! )

but when i read "i am amused" , i start to believe some peoples don't deserve the money they've got !

if it's a p.Hilton just burning bills like trash for fun , well nothing clever in that , but anyone has the right to take fun where he finds it .... (the only bad thing =even if weight billions , brain transplant aren't ready yet ...)

but a plane is something a bit different , you put your life at risks when flying ....

so loosing a million something into a doomed project is one thing ....

put your life at risks to proove athers you were right is really an other ...!!

an other thing = most experts stated that by 2015 the world biggest oil exporter will stop exporting (the pessimists say 2012, the optimists say 2018) so what going to happen to jet burning oil ?? , i would suggest to EA to hurry a little with E500 , before oil is too pricey and we all have to revert to a "revolutionary" concept = Zeppelin !

by the way , i contacted a mustang dealer , yes they agree to block money on an escrow-account till the plane is ready for delivery ( interests will remain my property till that day )

off-course mustang is more expensive , but at least it's better to have a secured deposit (producing interests in my name) for a plane supposed to be delivered in Q3 2008 , than an expectation in form of a revolutionary jet not flying , not finished, not certified , not sure if builder will remain in buisness long enough to face contractual warranties ....before the whole thing become too expensive anyway ....!!

mirage00 said...

The "bashers" sure do get upset when they can't prove their point.

Ken, as you said, which is so true... "Lots of words but no substance here any more"

I remain amused

double 00

airtaximan said...

mouse,

From what I've heard and seen, what you describe is exactly what happend at E-clips. Despite the myths spun by the company all along to try to save face.

I wonder what comment I made got your attention, regarding the ej22 failure and Someone at e-clips knowing that it was never going to work, even after the "first-flight" stunt when the extracted the non-refundable deposit money, a few weeks before dumping Williams.

I contend someone at e-clips knew the engine was trash, and that they even has a propulsion guy on their team - so the idea that it coma as a surprise to them after first flight, is well - -lunacy.

What don't you agree with?

mouse said...

Airtaxi, the reason I got pissed is because the engine is not trash. The control (FADEC) of the engine was 133% pure crap, and Vern?Eclipse was the sub-contractor for that.

Does anyone really believe that such a leading edge company like Williams with a proven track record of amazing engines would not produce a quality product? Williams built exactly what Eclipse asked for.

The engine simply can't be robust by design because the parts are just too small from scaling. The largest bolt on the entire engine is a #6 screw thread!

If a customer (Eclipse) specs a pile of crap, then that's what they will get. They specified and engine that would produce 700 Lbs of thrust (the initial requirement) and then upped it to 770 Lbs when they started to go heavy. The 770 Lbs of thrust came from Williams when they were asked to "push" the power as much as possible to try and help save the piss-poor engineering and weight estimates. Ever wonder where the weight guestimates came from??? The scaled a Cessna 206 Stationair because it was a similiar size cabin... How messed up was that!?!?

The original design allowed for 8 lbs of PRC wet wing sealant because that's all the C-206 used... Duh, the 206 is not a wet wing kerosene burner. If it were not so danm stupid, it would be funny!

The FJ22 runs to this day in several configurations, and I doubt it will ever see the commercial market... now military is a whole nother proposition. Anyone who needs a 1000 hour throw-away engine would have a fantastic engine. And guess what? At the current costs it's a bargin at 1000 hours. Only buy defining it's life can you plan to build in quantity and get the price down.

Vern is so clueless about the value of life-limiting the designs, although computers do it all the time! If your computer is more than 1 year old would you ever waste the money to fix it? No! I'm talking a basic home system...

Vern is a criminal. The fact that this cult leader can sway people like Ken, Mirage, Alexa, Etc. is really scary. They are so deep into the program that they have to promote it no matter what just to osave face. How sad.

Oxygen deprived, embarrassed, amused, or just stupid? I tend to believe they are are intelligent people, just fell into the wrong cult...

Drink the Kool-Aid, put a couple of quarters on their forward and wrap themselves in plastic, whatever... how sad that even today we have minds that are so in denial, fragile, or just weak...

There is really only one truth and it is very simple.

Vern had a great dream, screwed it up, and believed his own Bull S-it.

It's really not that hard to figure out... history will provide a wonderful look back some day.

mouse said...

Mirage,

don't confuse "mad" with disappointed. I feel for weak minded people whoo are so desperate to grab hold of something that makes no sense.

Everytime Eclipse ran into another delay, Vern would start changing the specs on the rest of the plane trying to fix what was screwed up or not properly designed.

He is an amazing fundraiser, and the worst manager ever born!

When the program went into delay the last thing you want to do is change anything else, yet he did exactly the opposite. In defense of Vern, he did it for the right reason, but he knows nothing about design, mfg, sales, markeyability, people management, Etc.

The real fault is with the Board of Directors who he slected to help guide him and keep him in check. The problem is he got leaders of industry so far removed from reality. He has a BOD looking at everything from 100,000' and nobdy in the trenches.

If I were a position holder I would find a way to hold each member of the BOD responsible. They let everyone down, big! These are the same losers that became has-beens, and take the nice golden parachute way out....

mirage00 said...

Hmmmm

Eclipse Avio features being implemented into Commercial airlines?


The enhancements on the Eclipse panel are now causing a bottom-up technology push. Ptakowski says IS&S will incorporate some of the new-found features, including the zoom control, into cockpits of 200 American Airlines Boeing 757s and 767s it recently won a contract to upgrade.


How can that be? It's all a scam!!!

I remain amused

double 00

fred said...

mirage00

send that note to Airbus and EADS , they will be so "amused" i am sure they'll invite on a tour to paris ...! (it is going a real crack for them the boeing are not going out of factories anymore ....!)

by the way , the thing supposed to be implemented is Avio or AvioNG ?? ;-))

more seriously .... you may know it = a whole bunch of guys saying a lie doesn't make a true thing !!!

(i thought you had learn your lessons = mass destruction weapons,etc....)

mirage00 said...

more seriously .... you may know it = a whole bunch of guys saying a lie doesn't make a true thing !!!

Isn't that called a "Conspiracy?"

I remain amused

double 00

fred said...

yes definitely ...!

you're right on that !

no matter if it is a journalist spreading words-of-mouth he has heard ...or top-officials stating total BS ....! ;-))

you have to be extremely carefull when taking into accounts this kind of papers , at Paris-airshow one of the thing you can hear the most is disinformation ....!!!

in the matter of eclipse , it doesn't look like a conspiracy ....

more like an other game to raise money by promises , false statements and so on ....!!

a bit like Etirc (the firm ordering 180 E500 in luxembourg) 18 months ago they didn't have a clue about aviation , still , they have never done anything close to air-buisness ...

i wonder if running an air-company is that easy ??? if it is my cleaning lady's son is looking for a job , may be i should give him the advice to start building planes and run airlines ....!!! ;-)))

JetProp Jockey said...

I was just looking at the Delivery Spreadsheet to try to determine how many aircrafts were considered to have been delivered in June. Is there a possibility of adding a column to indicate the date that each serial number is considered to have been shipped and another column to indicate the shipping sequence number?

Bonanza Pilot said...

haven't been checking the blog as regularly...since nothing is going on with Eclipse....I know the true believers think that is a good thing....no new certifications, no volume deliveries, no lifting of flight restrictions. Anyway, did anyone post the link to the AD yet...if not here it is"

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/23FA1E82E30343B986257302004B44CC?OpenDocument

I see that they are requiring two pilots..wonder if that is because of Avio? Doesn't make sense based on the pitot static stuff...the AD is an interesting read....
hmmm, checking the preview I don't think I can paste in that long of a link so will do it again spread across three lines...just reassemble them as one line in your browser.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and
_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/23FA1E82E30
343B986257302004B44CC?OpenDocument

airtaximan said...

Mouse,

I don't care much about what the die-hards say... but I respect your insight.
To be clear, I previously clarified, with enough time and money, the engine probably could have been made to work.

I just make the point that someone at e-clips knew they were throwing the engine in the trash, prior to the stunt first flight.

The fact that the are throwing anything in the garbage only reflects on them. Unfortunately, e-clips does not seem to comprehend the difference between technology that is ready, and technology that is not ready.

The FJX-2/EJ-22 engine is what it is... a technology demonstrator, that needs to be matured. It could take 15 years... but then again, you know that.

Who would base a program on that engine, in that state of maturity?

The ignorant.

Stan Blankenship said...

jpj,

Will fwd your request to flight center, he is the architect of the delivery page. Changes may take a few days as he is on holiday.

Will remind him to add the Boenning and Scattergood prediction of 170 units in '07 as well.

Stan Blankenship said...

In a view from Europe, fred reminded the hapless americans:

"more seriously .... you may know it = a whole bunch of guys saying a lie doesn't make a true thing !!!

(i thought you had learn your lessons = mass destruction weapons,etc....)"

He could have reminded us of the "mission accomplished" lesson that fits into the ABQ experience as well.

Happy Fourth!

BTW, I celebrate by sending 4th of July hats and party favors and candy to my wife's grandson in England so that his summer school class can celebrate the occasion. The act gives me perverse pleasure.

Shane Price said...

Stan,

Giving the English '4th of July stuff' is a bit perverse, even by an Irishman's standards.

For that very reason, I like the way you think!

Speaking of winding people up, any word on when Ken is due? I seem to recall someone from Comic Relief represented him as being sort of S/N 239? Ish.

I would really hate to be in that range. By now he MUST have had the 60% call, otherwise Vern is questioning his own numbers. With the glacial progress in delivery however, he could be waiting for another Independance Day before he sees anything.

I want to make it clear I am not predicting WHICH year, only that he will wait at least one more.

Fred is right about Paris. The French love a good chatter at the best of times, and the airshow is the highlight of the one area where European industry is giving you lot a few problems.

Even our own 'national' carrier has gone for the 350XWB over the Dreamliner.

Mildly amusing one that, since Aer Fungus (sorry, Lingus) was one of the launch customers for the original Jumbo.

The airline blew a couple of years of their marketing budget on an themed TV, Radio and press effort, all based on the common slogan, 'Look up, its Aer Lingus'

One month into it, with the jingle driving us all mad, a 747 taking off from SNN lost a cargo door, which killed a cow. The wags change the slogan overnight to 'Look out, its Aer Lingus' and the whole lot had to be pulled...

What will the E500's 'cow-hit-by cargo-door' event be?

Enjoy your National Holiday!

Shane

gadfly said...

Shane

First, you have to have an actual cargo door. The cows are safe!

gadfly

HiFlyer said...

Shane,

Ken has stated in a post on the Eclipse owners' board that he has position 151 and has been given a delivery date of November. I had asked earlier if he had been presented with an invoice for the 60% but was never answered.

If his information is correct it would mean Eclipse will be building at least 32 planes per month at the time of his delivery in order to make their projection of 216 by year end. My bet would be that both his date and the total will be missed

gadfly said...

Shane

In case someone says that the "Eclipse" has a cargo door . . . and it should fall off, it is most likely to happen as the "little jet" is being lifted onto the dock at Belfast . . . and the Irish cows are still safe.

Bail ó Dhia ort

gadfly

(And from a "Scot" at that!)

paul said...

Actually there is a "cargo" door.
It's directly in front of the engine inlet. It has the capacity to carry two engine plugs and some gear pins.
If it falls off the engine will prevent it from falling as one piece.

gadfly said...

Paul

Did you know that it is common to put a "magnet" in the stomach of a cow? It prevents pieces of iron (bailing wire, etc.) from going through the other stomachs and causing injury to the cow. Of course, aluminum breaks down much faster, so if a cow eats the cargo door off an Eclipse, the cow may only experience minor intestinal discomfort . . . and produce a slight amount of global warming gases . . . along with a volcano or two.

The dairy farmer could put another ingredient on the label of the milk . . . "aluminum oxide to build stronger bones".

gadfly

(Hey, I could make a case that Eclipse cargo doors create global warming, and deprive Polar Bears of ice-floats . . . and the earth is going to soon melt in a ball of fire.

With those that are "amused" and lack oxygen, as in "yawn", it is most difficult to approach anything as seriously relevant.

"Oh, the humanity!" . . . too much hydrogen, in that case. Which brings us back to the Zeppelin . . . revolutionary aviation, far ahead of its time.

And did I mention? . . . at the end of the year not a single Eclipse 500 will have been delivered that fulfills all the promises made to potential customers. Period!)

Shane Price said...

Gadfly, Paul,

The whole 'cow and the cargo door' thing is from the 'you could not make it up' school of real world events that screw up the best laid plans of professionals.

What was amusing at the time (early 80's) was the amount of tax money spent, followed so quickly by the rapid retreat of a state company, even though all that had happened was a single dead cow, in a country that had twice as many of them as there were of us.

It was not even a widespread thing. Enough people, who knew the ad agency and senior people in Aer Lingus, went out of their way to tell them the 'joke'. These lads just could not take it, and pulled the ads so as not to be slagged off in their pubs, golf clubs etc.

So, I repeat the question. How long before something trivial causes people to wake up to the joke in ABQ? It can be something so unlikely that no one could possibly see it coming (least of all the poor cow) or a totally standard human error that stands out for being especially noteworthy.

Laughter is corrosive, especially to those whose ego has become enlarged.

And I am relieved to learn that American cattle are safe from the E500.

I suspect they have much more to fear from your liking for BBQ's

Shane

Ken Meyer said...

hiflyer wrote,

"I had asked earlier if he had been presented with an invoice for the 60% but was never answered."

PM me, and I'll tell you all about it.

Ken

gadfly said...

Shane

The “atomic bomb” was invented here . . . as well as “aliens from outer space” (Roswell, and that crowd). So, New Mexico has everything, even “White Sands”, a fantastic beach (but with “no surf”). So, with a state whose motto is “The Land of Enchantment”, anything is possible . . . and many a scheme has been hatched here, or imported. Eclipse is not the first, by a long shot, and I suspect will not be the last.

A couple million people, with about half the size of the entire UK, we seem to make an awful big impression on the world. The trick is to find the “soft spot” of the rest of the world, and make everyone else think “we” have the “final answer”, and somehow figure a way to charge admission. The “International Hot Air Balloon Festival” is a masterpiece of genius . . . and I was there to see the first eight balloons “go up”.

You Irish did it . . . winning the hearts and minds of the world (Potatoes came from Central America, not Ireland, but we’ll keep your secret), and now the “New Mexicans” are just following your lead. “Irish Blarney” and now “Eclipse Blarney” . . . please explain the difference! Kiss the ‘Blarney Stone” . . . in this case “Kiss the . . . Eclipse Stone” (I was about so say something else, but thought better of it) . . . and all will be well! Except, as much as I hate the sound of an Irish Tenor, I would rather hear an Irishman sing, than listen to the “blarney” of Eclipse . . . any day! (But let me hear the “pipes” . . . Scottish or Irish . . . I love them all!)

In the early days of the little jet, I understand they could have used the “Blarney Stone” to hold down the nose, while they had a first “Open House” (to keep the little jet from falling on its tail feathers . . . but that’s another bit of local folk-lore for the Albuquerque manufacturing community, of which I am a part. OK, since you twist my arm, the call went out to a local source to provide some aluminum counter-weights to mount in the “nose”, immediately (“water-jet” cut from thick blocks of aluminum), to keep the poor little bird from falling on its “Southern Extremity”, while sitting in the hangar . . . of course, you must fully understand, all this was fully anticipated and “planned”, using the best CAD software available). (Sorry, Vern, but you must know by now that no-one keeps a secret in Albuquerque, . . . at least, not for long. There are just too many “leaks’. Remember Ethel and Julius Rosenberg? . . . yeh, they lived in New Mexico.)

Yes, we’ve seen it all . . . “Last Chance for Water Bags Before You Cross the Desert into Arizona” and “See Diamond Back Rattlesnakes”, at the top of “Nine Mile Hill” . . . as you leave Albuquerque, going across Arizona (a little “rest-stop” state to the west) to the “Golden State”, California.

gadfly

(What’s a few million thrown away between friends . . . just for “yucks”!
And, Shane, and anyone else who wishes, I'll take you to a BBQ, "Powdrell's", and treat you to a true BBQ feast. You can count on it, no matter which side of the fence you are on with the "little jet". Count on it.)

bill e. goat said...

Ken, I’m glad you’re getting your plane- soon I hope. I think it will do everything you need it to do now; and eventually, will do everything you want it to do. I hope you got it for the price promised, if not on the date promised.

M00, thanks for putting up a spirited rebuttal. Things get a little lopsided, and we can use all the balance we can get.

Goat: Regarding the engine, conspiracy, yes. To commit fraud. Oops, checking Wikipedia:

"In the broadest sense, a fraud is a deception made for personal gain. The specific legal definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Fraud is a crime, and is also a civil law violation. Many hoaxes are fraudulent, although those not made for personal gain are not technically frauds".

Okay, so the first-first flight was technically (in more ways than one) a hoax, not a fraud. And, uh, the second-first flight was also a hoax. And TC with Avidyne was also a hoax, given foreknowledge of the intent to change vendors. PC while kicking out FAA inspectors, and heck, even their OWN inspectors? Hoax, sham, conspiracy, all of the above?

M00: "Conspiracy, Cover up, Scam... makes Watergate look like Disneyland".

Goat: Oops, sorry I stole your sound bite. But I think of it more as Never-Never land. I think the investors think of it as Never-Again land.

M00: "Where is that "revolutionary" Williams EJ22 engine today? If it worked, how can someone get their hands on it? Oh yeah, another conspiracy by Vern. It just disappeared. Ponder that for a while".

Goat: It DID just disappear, and Eclipse WANTS to make sure it stays disappeared, because they don’t want the completion go get ahold of it. Sure it might need some more development work. But Eclipse owns the rights to it, I believe. (Speaking of needing more development work, what has Vern been doing for the PAST four years, AFTER this interview was conducted. Ponder that for a while.

MOO, thanks for sharing the article on engines. I was hoping for something informative, and do thank you for good efforts to inform us. But I couldn't help but notice, the ENTIRE substance of the article is an interview, with, VERN! How do you tell if Vern is lying? Look to see if he’s talking.

Nonetheless, let’s pretend he (Vern) was pulling a hoax, and not a fraud, in the 2003 interview, and examine a few of his statements:

P.T.: "Eclipse management finally convinced the Board that the problems were not going to get solved. The Board was sympathetic, but wanted to be sure. They hired a world-class consultant -- everybody uses him, and everybody agrees he's tops -- and told Williams he would look into things".

Goat: Well, I think -maybe- Vern should have hired this mysterious, unnamed, but yet “everybody knows him” type, to DESIGN THE AIRPLANE. Okay... so maybe he’s only an engine critic. But maybe he would have an airplane design friend who is "a world-class consultant--everybody uses him, and everybody agree he’s top’s". Does this sound like a bunch of bull or what???

P.T.: "The Board demanded that the consultant have access to everything at ________ that pertained to our program -- they hadn't let us see much of anything until then." Raburn continued, noting the good news and the bad.
The good news was that, "Our expert was given everything;" and the bad news was that he wrote, "a scathing report, that said _________was 2, maybe 3 years from certification. _________ had never done such things. Some of the things they were trying to do had never been done, by anyone, on any size …."

Goat: Now, fill in Eclipse instead of the blanked out Williams, and we have EXACTLY the situation at Eclipse.

"Raburn took a deep breath. 'Finally, I got permission from the Board, and kicked them out'".

Goat: I think the Board needs to take another deep breath, and do some leg exercises of their own.

P.T.: "We had a legal argument; they had a contract. We could get into the business of suing people, sort of 'Eclipse LLC,' and let the Eclipse [airplane] meanwhile just kind of go away; or we could terminate the agreement".

Goat: Or, Eclipse could sit on the rights to the engine. AND sue Williams anyway. Which, I’m told, they DID, on both accounts.

P.T.: "We weren't ready to accept their (Williams) two standard positions:
1) Yes, there is a problem; send money; or
2) We have it fixed, but there's no guarantee."

Goat: Um, it seems the owners-in-waiting are willing to accept BOTH of the standard positions...

P.T.: "An informal survey we took among a hundred of our customers -- we admit, we didn't do it scientifically..."

Goat: Yup, that describes the design philosophy pretty well…

Ken: "We will all probably get a firsthand look at Avio NG installed in an Eclipse 500 at Oshkosh later this month. What do you know? :)

Goat: Ah, when did the world get it’s first look at Avio OG installed in an Eclipse 500? What do you know? :)

CWMOR: "How did they get a 2 year reprieve due to the engine issues and STILL fail to deliver avionics? Because they either failed completely to manage the Avidyne program, or they CONTRIBUTED directly to the issues by failing to effectively manage the program, perhaps failed to provide a complete specification, maybe there was significant feature creep".

Goat: Right on! Same with EVERYTHING in the two year window. Eclipse didn’t do ANYTHING. Develop avionics? Structural test? Anything? GROSS mismanagement.

Goat (previous post): "BOD...are desperately hoping he can sell some more snake oil to other gullible types, to keep fresh cash coming..."

BTW, I was referring to Vern plying gullible investors, NOT buyers (gullible, or otherwise- that’s the sales department’s job now days. I think most buyers know what they’ll get, they just don’t know when they’ll get it). CWMOR closes the loop on this with: "I have heard that the $400M they are seeking now is definitely NOT for a new product and there are no serious development programs in work - this is all to continue funding the 500".

M00(quoting); "The faithful might be swayed by Vern's penchant for prestidigitation, but experienced and knowledgeable folks know it is all smoke and mirrors. Also appropriately referred to as "Dinosaurs of the industry".

Goat: Wrong. Dinosaurs ARE extinct. Companies that don’t make a profit soon WILL BECOME extinct. Eclipse is the aviation dinosaur here. Kind of like Nessy. I don’t want them to go belly up, but seriously, if they have spent almost $1B so far, and are loosing money on every airplane they sell, for say the next how many hundred? This is HORRIBLE management. This dinosaur isn’t just going extinct- it should be euthanized. And hopefully, some charitable takeover will preserve some of the customers interests.

Working my way down the posts...
Mouse says "Dr. Williams offered the FJ33 for the exact same price per pound of trust and Vern got pissed. Vern wanted 950 Lbs of thrust for the 770 Lb price..."

Goat: If that's true, it’s time to euthanize Vern as well as Eclipse-OG. Bring in adult supervision, reorganize into Eclipse-NG.

Ever seen the movie Fargo, with the guy’s leg sticking out of a wood chipper? Think Vern and the EJ-22. We’ll see just how robust that little thing really is.

Mouse: "Dr. Williams was too much of a gentleman to expose the ringer Vern had drug him through. Too bad, because this let the spoiled rotten brat get even worse".

Goat: I’d heard pretty good things about Sam Williams too. I’m sorry- Vern may be a good decent guy on the side, and I’ll give him credit for that, but for running Eclipse, it’s time for Vern to go the way of the Dinosaurs.

And it's time for Eclipse to evolve into a profitable company, or become a dead branch on the aviation tree of life- a strange mutation, that despite lots of "fertilizer" (what an understatement: lots of B.S., or B$, take your pick), could not mature.

bill e. goat said...

A big thanks to Mouse and CWMOR for details of the engine story.
Interesting details like these are why I like this blog so much.

The proponents (um, all several of them- some topics I'm in this camp too) make the blog interesting for their insight into Vern's spin on things. Thanks for hanging tough, and providing the blog with your views.

The critics make it interesting by providing substantive (I feel- especially this series of posts) insight on what is behind what Vern is spinning- and for keeping a wary eye on New Mexico's wiliest weasel.

I'm out of town for the 4th- I hope everyone has a nice holiday. Thanks to all the veterans out there, and families of veterans.

mouse said...

Airtaximan,

You are correct, we knew the engines would not provide sufficient thrust a full year before first flight (the real first, first flight). The weights were so far off that before we even began assembling the first flying prototype (Ooops, fully conforming first article...) and we would need 850 Lbs of thrust.

mouse said...

Highflier,

Are you nuts! Ken will get his plane on time. Vern would never let him down. If Vern says November of '07, it will be the last Tuesday of November, '07. The real question is.. Is that 2007 or 2107?

mouse said...

Gadfly,

Most likely hte injury will occur when the eclipse gets crushed. Cows (Bulls) often step in their own piles...

mouse said...

Gadfly, I personally added 400 lbs of ballast to the nose to keep the plane from tipping over for rollout. Fact, not fokelore...

mouse said...

Bill-e-goat,

Vern lost all of his claims to the engine when he failed to certify the plane with the Williams engine.

mouse said...

Bill-e-goat,

Not exactly... Dr. Williams who sat on the board, was invited to a secret BOD meeting sans Vern in July of '02. He told the board that he could not work with Ven any longer due to his lack of professionalism, unrealistic goals, FADEC development issues, Etc.

Like Avidyne, Vern was the one who fired them, about 2 seconds after the quit.

mouse said...

Bill-e-goat/CWMOR,

The latest $400M closed on June 13th or 14th, a single investor from TX

flyger said...

Ken Meyer said...

Along those lines, recall that the naysayers predicted Avio NG would never be done this year. But, surprise! According to this Flight International article 4 days ago, we will all probably get a firsthand look at Avio NG installed in an Eclipse 500 at Oshkosh later this month. What do you know? :)


Unfortunately, Ken, you added the "installed" word to the above. Wishful thinking, I know, but the way the articles are worded, there is no promise of AvioNG being installed in anything or even being complete. Avweb said this:

According to Flight International, International Solutions & Support will unveil the AvioNG avionics and flight management system for the Eclipse 500 at EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh, Wis., later this month.

Some things to note. First, IS&S (not Eclipse) said this. They don't have an airplane as far as I know. Second, IS&S says they will show "AvioNG" (but they don't make all the parts). Third, it doesn't say anything at all about being installed in an EA500, merely that the avionics are "for" an EA500, not "in" an EA500.

I wonder how Vern feels about IS&S generating buzz for the "AvioNG" system? I seem to recall Vern made a big point of syaing Avio was never Avidyne's thing, so this must irk him to some extent if not done with his blessing.

My instincts tell me that what you will see at Oshkosh will be a benchtop display of IS&S panels doing things IS&S has already programmed. I don't think it will be full AvioNG (as in talking to ACS, radios, audio, radar, autopilot), and I certainly don't think it will be installed in an EA500.

So, faithful Eclipsians, do you think you will see a flyable EA500 with AvioNG installed at Oshkosh? That is, AvioNG flew into Oshkosh?

We will find out in about 3 weeks! Take a picture to prove it!

Ken Meyer said...

flyger wrote,

"Unfortunately, Ken, you added the "installed" word to the above. Wishful thinking, I know, but the way the articles are worded, there is no promise of AvioNG being installed in anything or even being complete. Avweb said this:"

Instead of quoting Avweb's article quoting Flight International, you might as well go to the original report here:

"Innovative Solutions & Support president Roman Ptakowski says the company is targeting the Experimental Aircraft Association's annual gathering in Oshkosh, Wisconsin in late July to show off the first AvioNG integrated avionics system in an Eclipse 500."

"IN an Eclipse 500"

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

And you might find this AIN Online report interesting:

Opinicus Readying Eclipse Simulators


By Matt Thurber

July 01, 2007
Training



Simulator manufacturer Opinicus is in the final stages of completing four full-motion simulators and one fixed training device for the Eclipse 500 very light jet. FAA certification of the full-motion simulator is expected in the third quarter, according to Opinicus president Jim Takats, with training set to begin at Eclipse headquarters in September.

At Opinicus’s Lutz, Fla. factory, Eclipse Aviation test pilots performed acceptance tests on the Model 500 level-6 flight training device in mid-March. The FTD received FAA certification in late May, Takats said.

Both the FTD and the full-motion level-D simulators are running aerodynamic and performance data for early versions of the Eclipse 500 without the performance improvement package that includes aerodynamic modifications, aluminum tip tanks and the Avio NG avionics suite.

Opinicus engineers have incorporated the data for the performance improvements, but, said Takats, “from a training standpoint and going into the FAA, we are going to match the aircraft configuration for aircraft number one. You can’t really have features on the simulator that don’t exist on the aircraft. We’ll disable those [added performance features] for training.”

When Eclipse upgrades early airplanes to the performance improvement configuration and as airplanes with the new features begin rolling off the assembly line, Opinicus will switch the simulator to the new configuration. Pilots will be able to train on either type.

Opinicus has manufactured full-motion simulators for the McDonnell Douglas DC-9 and Airbus A320. The Eclipse simulators and FTD feature the Rockwell Collins EP-1000CT visual system, which uses digital light processing technology in a package that is much lighter but delivers greater resolution than traditional simulator projectors.

The simulator software is designed to be scalable to almost any device used for training, from laptop computers to the level-D full-motion simulator. “The same software that’s running in the level-D simulator is running in the laptop,” said Takats, “so there’s no negative training. Everything is contained in configuration management so any improvements done to the level-D software flow down to the lower-level devices.”

The level-D simulator’s motion base is driven by Opinicus’ Real Feel electronic control loading system instead of hydraulics. The simulator’s lightweight structure results in a full-up weight of less than 16,000 pounds, more than 10,000 pounds lighter than a typical Boeing 737 simulator built by another manufacturer, according to Takats.


Ken

fred said...

ah ah ah ....!
mow i see why some are "amused" ...

this whole thing starts to look like the good old "Citroen" (a french car maker) ..

years ago they used to design extraordinary cars ...

some may recall the wonderfull "DS"
(a french acronym for "déesse" = goddess)

a car that was at least 20 years ahead of anything with 2 to 6 wheels at the time ...

just one thing was not really top ...

looking closer on their production ,anyone could see and experience something quite amusing (exept for buyers) it was fruit of the delirium of very talented ingeeners using the most advanced or completly new techs ... without any ideas of how to link them together ...

no wonder why after a few years ( dispite heavy subsides from french gov.) they went bankrupt , lost most of trust among owners and finally was bought for a single penny by a competitor !

EclipseAviation look the same ...

investors are probably going to be told soon "sorry !! sometime when you play , you're bound to loose..." , position holders = " how much more can you pay for getting something worth?" (worth meaning "really flying ")

because it always end-up to the same point :

can they build a plane really flying , sell it and make enough profit (on each one ) to run services and repay investors ???

that point is very doubtfull !!!

redtail said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
redtail said...

Mouse, you are so full of it. Your stories are convincing, but they are simply not true...

$400M has not been received. Eclipse did close on some funding, but nowhere near the numbers that you speak of. It was also from multiple investors, not a single Lone Star.

The need for more thrust from the Williams engine was also due to the fact that it could/wouldn't put out the contracted rated thrust. The first flight was done on 1/2 rated thrust, and Eclipse was given permission from Williams to fry the engines should a "situation" develop in flight. Mouse, how about telling everyone about the number of times the engines had to go back to Michigan for repairs for broken parts, cracked blades, hot starts, fires, tape left in the turbine section during assembly, burned out starters, etc. The engines delivered never demonstrated full thrust of 700 lbs, never mind 770 lbs, ever.

As you said, Eclipse gave up all rights to the engines when they certified with P&WC, so where is the engine, or a derivative, that would be available from Williams? You won't see one, because Williams still can't get it to work, unless it was on the tail end of a cruise missile for one use.

Your information about Sam Williams is also in error. Although Sam is the genius behind the company, his son Greg has been at the helm for a long time, and the one responsible. It was Vern and Greg that eventually had issues with the working relationship, not Sam.

Where do you get your information -listening to conversations while standing outside the bathroom?

mirage00 said...

so where is the engine, or a derivative, that would be available from Williams? You won't see one, because Williams still can't get it to work, unless it was on the tail end of a cruise missile for one use.

Thanks Redtail for keeping it real!

I've said his before, the "bashers" are getting restless.
They are running out of time. A total Eclipse is coming!


I remain amused

double 00

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

mirage00

i have no doubts about "some" E500 getting out of factory ....
(after 1 Billion ++ spent they have to ....!)

but that's only a third of the problem ...

what would be interresting is to know future of EclipseAviation after deliveries of those "some" ...!

and for that future there is absolutely nothing to say EA is going to make the whole project worth any profits .....

if no profits on short terms , no services , no spare-parts , no trainings , no nothing ...

EA seems to be not exactly well managed ...

so after that future (near or not so near) what gonna happen ??

i wonder if an E500 is going to like nice as decoration for the garden .....!!!

X-e-clipser said...

Howdy All,
Newly "X" employe here, Just a note on the sighting of N503EA in ICT Saturday June 30, 2007 during the recent record rain in Kansas history. Unit landed for refueling and while on the ground, an E-clips employee as a passenger found to be constructing an innovative apperatus to cover the nose of the acft. to keep the downpour of moisture from entering the Static ports. Seems as if the AD does not mean much to Peg B., Kent E. and so their Defiance of the latest FAA directive goes on as did during ther TC and PC fiasco adventure. Does any one know if the aft bulkhead issue of being incorrectly installed was ever corrected so the aircraft roll issue would go away?
X-e-clipser

Stan Blankenship said...

x-e-c,

An issue with the aft bulkhead has never been mentioned on the blog. How would this affect roll control?

I did receive reports of problems with the horizontal tail and that some number were being replaced.

Can you shed light on either matter?

fred said...

may be the thing is going to fly one day (i mean really , without limitations and in a winter night ...)

i may even happen that position holder of today will be happy with theirs toy ...

may be it's going to work on your side of the ocean...

as for my side of atlantic , i have a doubt it will be certfied one day ....

as you may know , in order to certify a "mass" production you have to demonstrate you will be in position to service your production for XX years (depending on what it is ..)

in the european union , they want to make a rule as the crazy frenchs already have in their law : you have to be able to provide spare-parts and service ten years after stop of production ...

in the case of EA it can be something very good as they don't produce anything ....

and it can have the opposite effect : if the supplier of parts are just not interrested in E500 if EA goes to the sewage ...

or if the parts of the E500 are made only for it ...

which make it loose all interests for its technical breaktrough ' as it is too specific for a company that may be gone tommorrow ...)

so yes , after considering the facts ...

i must admit E500 look pretty cool ,in 5 years (if EA is still around in buisness ) it will probably be something great ....

but as for now , mustang is a much safer bet ....

security and peace of mind have a price ....

it is the difference in the tag in between E500 and mustang !

mouse said...

Ken, I am disappointed. I never thought you were to tied in with reality, with all your blind support, even after being proved wrong so many times by your hero, Vern.

Now we find out you're a liar. I don't mind anything else, and your opinion is even more important then mine, or anyone elses who does not have a deposit on the EA-500, but to lie is inexcusable, and you have nothing to say that can change this, unless of course the report of your actual (or new) position is reported incorrectly. You told all of us you had position 11xx.

It appears you like to play to the audience and tell a different story whether you are on this blog, or on the Eclipse owners site. Shame on you!

This site is often put down by you and your other oxygen starved pals, however that does not keep you from being here every day/night. If the only way you can feel importatn or knowledgeable is to garner info from one site and spread it as your own to the other, how sad.

It's not anyones call, but if you had any balls you'd pickup your lying little ways and go away. Aviation is a small band of brothers and we rely on each other for support, assistance, sharing of knowledge, Etc. You are a menace to safety and a poor excuse of an aviatior!

You're a duck!

redtail said...

X-e-clipser said... Does any one know if the aft bulkhead issue of being incorrectly installed was ever corrected so the aircraft roll issue would go away?

Nice drive-by x-e-clipser. No farcical details on incorrectly installed bulkheads? You forgot to mention the incident where they mounted the tires backwards, and connected the left side frelangy to the right side stanuskabob.

For a newly EX-Eclipser, you are pretty short on information and tales. I would think that someone just out of the barn would be jumping at the chance to "tell all". You're not even close to being believable.

redtail said...

mouse said... Ken, ... Now we find out you're a liar.

Mouse, don't throw stones... Your stories are less than believable.

redtail said...

Mouse said... Now we find out you're a liar. I don't mind anything else, and your opinion is even more important then mine, or anyone elses who does not have a deposit on the EA-500, but to lie is inexcusable, and you have nothing to say that can change this, unless of course the report of your actual (or new) position is reported incorrectly. You told all of us you had position 11xx.

Mouse, I don't think Ken EVER stated his position number, confirmed or denied, on this blog. It was speculated by others here. Several months ago, I did give Ken's true position number in one of my posts. So, you're the one who is mistaken, AGAIN.

Go back to the urinals and see what else you can overhear. And by the, Mirage remains amused.

Ken Meyer said...

x-e-clipser wrote,

"Seems as if the AD does not mean much to Peg B., Kent E. and so their Defiance of the latest FAA directive goes on"

I believe the AD does not apply to N503EA. It is experimental and therefore exempt, is it not?

"Does any one know if the aft bulkhead issue of being incorrectly installed was ever corrected so the aircraft roll issue would go away?"

Yes; reportedly the issue affected several of the first 10 aircraft, but was resolved quite a while ago.

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

mouse wrote,

"Ken...you're a liar...You told all of us you had position 11xx."

I believe you are mistaken. But if you find any post where I said I had position 11xx, I'll be delighted to apologize. I think you will not find such a post.

It will be interesting to see if you will be gentleman enough to apologize for your false accusation as vociferously as you made it. We're all watching.

Ken

flyger said...

Ken Meyer said...

"Innovative Solutions & Support president Roman Ptakowski says the company is targeting the Experimental Aircraft Association's annual gathering in Oshkosh, Wisconsin in late July to show off the first AvioNG integrated avionics system in an Eclipse 500."

"IN an Eclipse 500"


You are hanging a lot of hopes on a casual preposition. The reporter could have easily meant "for an Eclipse" by means of description of what AvioNG is.

Send us a picture from Oshkosh to prove it! I'm still putting my money on a bench top display not in a flyable airplane. In 3 weeks, we will know one way or the other. I'm sure the Eclipsian's faith will survive the disappointment given what they have already been through, but it will none the less be interesting to know what progress has or has not been made.

I also wonder why IS&S CEO (who is new to the job, BTW) is making claims about what Eclipse will be showing. Seems to me they can only claim what they will be showing, namely their boxes and not an airplane.

Shane Price said...

Ken,

Why not exempt all E499.5's from the AD, on the reasonable basis that the whole thing is an 'experiment'?

Maybe thats the way out for all of the faithful. Go the Epic route and build the jet yourself. I hear the weather in New Mexico is pretty good and Gadfly says he will take anyone from the blog to a good BBQ joint.

He might have to make a few exceptions mind, on the grounds of good taste.

Shane

planet-ex said...

"Simulator manufacturer Opinicus is in the final stages of completing four full-motion simulators and one fixed training device for the Eclipse 500 very light jet. FAA certification of the full-motion simulator is expected in the third quarter, according to Opinicus president Jim Takats, with training set to begin at Eclipse headquarters in September."

Certify in September? Start training in third quarter? I can't forsee them starting training until fourth quarter. The FAA still has to certify the sims and they can be a real bear to deal with.

Gunner said...

Amazing how The Faithful report milestone after milestone, yet these are seldom in the present tense. Invariably, the cheers are for Eclipse accomplishments that are "just a couple quarters away". Too often, these milestones are touted a half dozen times, each with a new delivery date, just a little further out.

Wanna talk about "keeping it real"? Focus on what actually HAS been accomplished in '07. Here's a thumbnail sketch:

Jan 1: Eclipse had delivered the first of 1,000 planes for the year; the plane was fully certified; FIKI was imminent.

June 30: A handful of half finished birds were half delivered; the Avio program was restarted from scratch; JetComplete was pulled off the table, new pricing to be revealed "soon"; FIKI was pushed back to Tuesday; the entire production fleet was effectively grounded due to FAA concerns regarding its safety.

Cheer that, Diehards.
Gunner

EclipseOwner387 said...

Mouse,

It was EB that I recall that stated Ken's position number as Ken would not disclose. I don't remember the number. I don't see Ken as a liar at all. Most of us are here stating opinions and "facts" as we believe them to be. But as usual, there are at least two sides to every story and that creates debate. My advice is to chill a little and leave the dramatic to Frank Castle.

On another note, if all goes as planned I will be in ABQ next week to take delivery of a 499.5! Slight chance it could be this Friday but timing will be an issue. The plane has COA and I am told is ready. For those not following my story closely - this is NOT SN24 as that was sold and delivered in June.

Stan Blankenship said...

eo387,

After you take delivery, will you share with your fellow bloggers the empty weight and CG location from the AFM?

Ken Meyer said...

Stan wrote,

"will you share with your fellow bloggers the empty weight and CG location from the AFM?"

Yes, and perhaps a complete list of every pre-delivery defect he finds. The blog is desperately in need of new material to attack with :)

Ken

Gunner said...

Ken said:
"The blog is desperately in need of new material to attack with"

Ken-
You seem to pride yourself on precision, detail and nuance. In context of your style and the request for CG limit data, I'll take the above response as an admission that there's info in that CG data that is not a ringing endorsement of Le Petit's prowess.

Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

"I'll take the above response as an admission that there's info in that CG data that is not a ringing endorsement of Le Petit's prowess."

Actually, I wouldn't say that. But I certainly think that Stan is hoping he'll find fodder there.

It's no secret that many naysayers suspect the aircraft is over promised empty weight. But I would remind folks that the company is contractually obligated to provide a useful load of 2400 lbs in the aeromod-equipped planes, and they are up against a hard wall for MGTOW. So, the empty weight will turn out to be no more than 3629 lbs (without options).

I think the CG questions were addressed long ago.

Ken

Jim Howard said...

"FAA certification of the full-motion simulator "

What avionics package would this simulator have? Are there any rules that require the sim's avionics to match those of the airplane it simulates in order to be used for type rating training?

Shane Price said...

Ken,

Since when did this company ever put itself up against a 'hard wall'?

What has you so convinced that the Maximum Gross Take Off Weight limits the E499.5 to 'no more than 3629lbs without options'?

They will play with the field lengths, the ISA limits, even what you descibe as 2400lbs of 'payload'.

You are in real danger of disappointment when the promise of 2400lbs of 'payload' slips...

At some stage, you will have to admit that this company is incapable of telling the truth.

I come back to responsibility. In the computer business, no one will ever find a 17" dimension on a display described as a '17" LCD Flat Panel'. No computer software will work as advertised in version 1.0. No one will ever get a trade in on a 3 year old PC. Except as landfill.

This is the background that your leader hails from. That is why he is going to fail in the industry where systems cannot fail to fly the stated distance, operate (without 'crashing') as designed and provide real long term value to users and owners.

So, when it fails as it must, will Vern take the rap. Nope. No one takes the rap in the computer business either.

Its the people like you, who can't see that its a train, not a light at the end the tunnel, will be left short of money, or much worse.

Shane

mouse said...

I would hope that the simulator would weigh less than a Boeing 737 simulator. Why would you even compare the two, unless of course it's because Eclipse was originally going to train in the B-737. The planes are so similar, Digital vs, analog, 160,000 Lbs vs. 6,000 lbs, yoke/wheel vs, sidestick, real passenger airliner vs. toy jet with 40% of it's seating reserved for flight crew vs. <2% for the flight crew (including stews)...

mouse said...

Sorry Redtail,

You are incorrect. Yes, the engines went back plenty, in fact Gregg flew one out in their plane even, and the failures were all due to the FADEC not working. The fuel schedule was bootstrapping severely and was cutting back on fuel when the engine need more, and over-delivering when it needed less.

Gregg has been the head of the company for years, however Dr. Williams was controlling this program, and sat on the board.

Your facts aren't, but that's OK. You remember what you want, just understand you are either incorrect, have a poor memory, or have no clue what you are talking about.

mouse said...

Redtail,

I forgot to address the thrust comment... Wrong, but thatnks for trying. I operated that engine in thhe test cell at &50 Lbs of thrust personally.

mouse said...

Redtail,

At the time, the only bathrooms were in the engineering offices. Out on the shop floor we had no bathrooms. Guess we were not the one's full of it.

Anything I report on I either had direct invlovement on, or was briefed by Vern, or a VP..

planet-ex said...

Jim Howard said...
"FAA certification of the full-motion simulator "

What avionics package would this simulator have? Are there any rules that require the sim's avionics to match those of the airplane it simulates in order to be used for type rating training?


Not really, it just has to match an aircraft that exists and is certified. For example, SimuFlite has simulators that match a specific serial number of an aircraft (i.e., cockpit matches an STC'd aircraft with different displays than delivered with). However, the type rating is valid even if the panel doesn't match the aircraft you're flying.

Gunner said...

Mouse-
A potential Depositor need only tune in to this Blog for your comments and rebuttal; they will surely run headlong, as fast and far from ABQ as humanly possible (that is, unless they already bought into the scam of twin engine performance and dependability at single engine price).

Debate is fun and all; but at the end of the day this is serious business. And, at the end of the day, it becomes obvious who has talking points and who has experience. Your experience shines thru.

I wonder how many potential Depositors have been swayed by your words? After all, we don't hear much from ABQ about continued growth in the order book. That's strange, given all the "progress" reported by Ken and the Drive-By Bros.
Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

gunner wrote,

"Mouse...Your experience shines thru."

You mean ignoring the times he's demonstrably wrong :)

Like his claim about my plane's serial number.

Ken

Gunner said...

Ken-
Easy miss, what with all the disinformation you do provide.

Yup, he owes you an apology; but, then, you might reap what you sow; I've yet to see you apologize for your own clear misses, even when they were intentional.
Gunner

redtail said...

mouse said... Anything I report on I either had direct invlovement on, or was briefed by Vern, or a VP..

Oh, sure, like "secret" board meetings.

redtail said...

mouse said... You are incorrect. Yes, the engines went back plenty, in fact Gregg flew one out in their plane even, and the failures were all due to the FADEC not working.

Ah, yes. It's all the fault of the FADEC. That being the case, where is the wonder engine today? An 80 lb 700 lb thrust engine would be a great platform for many new designs. Dream on... Don't forget to flush.

redtail said...

mouse said... Gregg has been the head of the company for years, however Dr. Williams was controlling this program, and sat on the board.

Yes he was on the board. That was because he was one of the early investors in Eclipse's startup. The shares on are record under the Williams' family trust. I think there's an empty stall waiting for you.

redtail said...

mouse, mirage is still amused.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
airtaximan said...

Its quite humerous watching the die-hards sqirm as the truth is displayed here by Mouse for all to see...

the only error is his reference to someone stating Ken's delivery position was in the thousands - because Ken would never come clean.

So, once again, misinformation or the lack thereof provided by e-clips or the die-hards seems to be the root of all consusion...and the excuse for the die-hards to cry.

Funny how they never cry about their flushed deposit money demanded fraudulently. Funny how they accept a crippled aircraft and revel in a sim that is not even in service. Its a joke, if it was not really so sad.

Victor-Juliette should be turning and turning, and fuming mad as a shareholder in e-clips. Their investment is worthless.

Who knows what happend with the technology demo engines that were not close to prime time? Anyone care to state definatively whether they are in some black program, in the trash, or DOA?

I didn' think so.

Bottom line, the plane was designed (porly) around those engines, and the engines have been replaced. The plane was NOT redesigned to optimally make use of the PW610F.

NEWSFLASH - everyone in aviation knows that is the e-clips was anywhere near successful, there's a better airframe based on the Pratt engines. The airframe was an adaption. This, by definition leaves the door wide open for a stronger, better competitor design.

Problem is, the market is BS for this type of aircraft - no one cares.

Lastly, there are other small turbo fan engines nearing completion in the development process, and some cool twin engine planes coming out soon that will kick Verns ass.

They are smartly designed and optimized for the markets they are designed for.

-enjoy your piece of junk, backed by your BS non-aircraft manufacturing company. The replacement product is on the drawing board, and its menat to further cover up problems, instaed of appeal to a market.

Welcome to e-clips, where ego-centrism is our mtto, and the basis for our product development, and our utter failure in the marketplace.

Its also a religion.

The Real Frank Castle said...

Stan sez:
"After you take delivery, will you share with your fellow bloggers the empty weight and CG location from the AFM? "

then Kenny sez:

"Yes, and perhaps a complete list of every pre-delivery defect he finds. The blog is desperately in need of new material to attack with :)"

How about a little dose of the truth for once ? What the *&^% are you people scared of ? PROVE your point without a shadow of a doubt, and the blog will die, as you so desperately hope for.

SOLID CONCRETE PROOF. Proof the POS can do what was claimed, as delivered. Proof the "owners" aren't wasting their money. Proof the Investors aren't wasting theirs.

PROVE IT ALREADY, OR STAND DOWN !!

You can't. You KNOW you can't. Quit arguing all this BS about CG, AFM's, etc. It's all moot.

There is no truth that will save any of this POS project. I have more investment faith in what is going on at Area 51.

The Real Frank Castle said...

Jeez, even the ex-clippers on the floor and here in the cubes are driving me nuts ! You would think the way they go on about ABQ, that they want to go back. Oh, it was this, it was that, yada, yada. We did this , we did that, yawn, ho-hum.

LET 'EM !!

God Bless the Dinosaurs !

Ken Meyer said...

airtaximan wrote,

"humerous"--like the bone, right?

"sqirm"--(a sea creature, right?)

"Ken would never come clean"--I never take a shower, eh?

"consusion"--maybe it was something the Chinese philosopher Confucius said? :)

"definatively"--New spelling, right?

didn' think"--new contraction

"porly"--New wine

"adaption"--New thing to do with unwanted babies

"instaed"--British version?

"mtto"--acronym for "me thinks that's ok"


I sure get a kick out of reading your creative writing, AT :)

Ken

redtail said...

airtaximaan said... -enjoy your piece of junk, backed by your BS non-aircraft manufacturing company. The replacement product is on the drawing board, and its meant to further cover up problems, instead of appeal to a market.

Why so threatened? You sound scared.

The Real Frank Castle said...
Jeez, even the ex-clippers on the floor and here in the cubes are driving me nuts ! You would think the way they go on about ABQ, that they want to go back. Oh, it was this, it was that, yada, yada. We did this , we did that, yawn, ho-hum.

Gee Frankie. I guess the guys around you in the cubes know what was accomplished in ABQ, but you just can't handle hearing about it. Go back to your slide rule, and get in touch with reality.

Gunner said...

When The Faithfuls' only point is the typing skills of the Critics, I worry....

For the Faithful.

Enjoy your jet, Ken. You should see training "early in the third quarter". That done, you can set about getting the FAA to actually allow it to fly places.

By the way, how many owners other than Mike Press have been signed off to fly it? None, huh? Really makes you wonder, it being so easy and all. Guess the "beauty of the design" lies in it turning into a world class aviation joke.
Gunner

EclipseOwner387 said...

NinerZulu,

Epic has been disucssed here numerous times (read pay attention.) I am a big fan. I hope they succeed with the certified product. I think they need to be careful though. They are building too many products at one time. If they can get the dynasty certified they will be golden. That should be their focus rather than a VLJ. A single TurboProp with the performance/price they proclaim is a TBM and VLJ killer for the owner/operator market.

Just my opinion but I think I am right.

;-)

EclipseOwner387 said...

Stan and Ken,

Yes, I am ignoring your requests until I know for sure the outcome of my dealings and fully understand confidentiality obligations that may apply. I am not saying I agree with any potential cofidentiality obligations but I also don't believe in violating contractual agreements. I personally think Eclipse should post these numbers so we can move on. With that said we will have to wait and see.

mouse said...

Hey Mirage,

The Total Eclipse is already here.... The sun is completely blocked out and you are in the dark...

mouse said...

The FJ22 is available to any venture that is interested. Call Williams International and ask for sales. If you are a legitimate party and sign the standard business documents you too can get pricing and details.

mouse said...

Stan, in answer to E-eclipsers remark, I was aware of a severe cracking problem we had with the aft pressure bulkhead, but that should have been corrected in the winter of '02. The structure was way to rigid and cracks developed instantly. It was designed with three (3) enormous "I" beams that allowed for zero flexibility. Chock it off to inexeperience of a young engineer...

The roll issues were due to not-rigid-enough tooling frames (picture frame style) that allowed the wing to flex way to much in the jig. This was very common at Eclipse in the early years. The engineers made the aircraft structure rigid and the tooling flexible, the exact opposite. We had amazing tooling guys, but they were always over-ridden or asked to build what a non-tooling type designed...

mouse said...

Ken,

no appologies for you. I wrote that if I was mistaken in my original post, however you position number was stated, and if you did not state it, you read it and did not correct or deny it, so you're still a liar and your less-than=fancy word games won't help you out here. We've all been watching for a long time...

Congratulations, now you're a duck too...

mouse said...

Redtails right! My statements are less than believable. Anyone who tells the truth about Eclipse or Vern would have to be unbelieveable, because their whole story is un-believe-able... Accurate reporting of a unbelievable story produces an unbelievable story, the problem is it's all true! Laughs on you sad to report!

mouse said...

Redtail,

You and Mirage seem to be spending a lot of time with each other in the men's room, or is that the Eclipse briefing room, both the same actually. Same matter coming out and/or being flushed.

Sorry to disappoint you. I have no reason to report anything less than the facts/truths.

I walked away because I was not happy with how things were being managed, and where the company was headed. My 1st 6 months with the company I reported directly to Oliver and Vern, and then to Larry Jones until I left. I finished everything i was working on, got the plane through 1st flight (the first, 1st flight) and then shook hands with friend and foe alike and walked out the door.

I do not have to defend, support, shootdown, or in anyway make Eclipse of Vern look bad. They do a fine job on their own however. it's all in print on their website and in history.

I wish the plane would succeed. I could make a small fortune modifying and maintaining them.

Sorry if the truth hurts you so much, and sorry if your team mates who defend Eclipse along with you are not honest, open, or sharp enough to listen to those that are giving them valuable information... Well, wait a minute... Guess they are recieving and fetting educated on others providing them the facts... Time will tell...

If Stan were to close down this blog tonight, the most disappointed would be Ken, Mirage, Redtail, Alexa....

Gunner, thanks for the support. Hope you don't draw too much fire for it! LOL! The truth hurts!

Stan, Thanks for providing the uneducated a little free education. 99.99% of pilots and owners never get to talk with anyone having so much knowledge or experience in the design of aircraft. They have trouble believing because they have no idea...

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

gunner ....

talking of M.Press , the only one flying an E500 , one detail struck me ...

if you look on his website you can easily see that for 2008 onward deliveries , position are to be sold for LESS than factory price ...

in a country where economics is based on idea "market is omniscient and always right" what does it mean ??

simple= position holders ARE aware EA has good chances to go "belly-up" ! (sorry this isn't even an opinion , it's obvious deduction!)

by the way , i never thanks all of you for enabling potential customers to have a different view on "how to waste a million something US$"

so i do it right and right now !!

redtail said...

mouse said (on the way to the toilet).... My 1st 6 months with the company I reported directly to Oliver and Vern, and then to Larry Jones until I left. I finished everything i was working on, got the plane through 1st flight (the first, 1st flight) and then shook hands with friend and foe alike and walked out the door.

In otherwords, you haven't even been there for 5 years!

redtail said...

mouse said...
The FJ22 is available to any venture that is interested. Call Williams International and ask for sales. If you are a legitimate party and sign the standard business documents you too can get pricing and details.

Of course, and that's why they show the "wonder engine" in their product line - NOT. I laugh at you.

mirage00 said...

Mike sees very happy

Oh yeah, he's part of the "Conspiracy"

I remain amused

double 00

hummer said...

What if that had been a DayJet plane with 4 paying customers onboard?

fred said...

mirage00

thanks for the link ....

no, mike isn't part of any conspiracy , he's just a retailler for the thing ...
(have you ever heard a GM dealer saying "the cars i sell are f***g great , but i am not stupid i drive a BMW ?)

one other thing i found : european market for E500 (especially in the way of "dayjet") = just no way !!!

distance aren't that great , fuel is a heck more expensive (taxes), public transport (as train) are a good speed alternative to plane (ok , in the west of europ...from paris to london train beat plane on schedule !as for eastern europ : either they don't have the money or it's not flashy enough or they lack infrastructure...)) speed limits for cars are much higher than in the USA ( no limits on german highways ,93mph in italy , 81 mph in all others countries vs 55mph [???not sure about that anymore]), usually roads and highways less crowded than in the US (ok during the weekdays ... but did you ever see a CEO flying on week-ends ? well not in europ !) , public opinion really not in favor of more polluting , régulations by the XXX numbers ...

i very doubt of interest for such market , as a toy (if it's really flying ) yes great !! to make a profitable buissness ??? exepct we buy american thing for +/- 30% less than you do (euro vs $)

so i don't think EA is going to find a buoy to inflate for surviving on this side of the ocean .....

sorry !

Bonanza Pilot said...

Mirage,
read Mikes report....talk about a guy trying to justify a bad product! He spends 1/2 the article talking about how great it is to fly VFR...no clearances to worry about etc. as if the fact that the Eclipse can only fly VFR is actually a good thing.

gadfly said...

Mike's article is extremely amusing . . . to the point of making a case for buying a J-3 Cub, with all the advantages of VFR, low fuel prices in "out-of-the-way" places, no need to wait for clearances, just "jump in and go", climb high enough to clear the trees . . . now that is revolutionary . . . even sounds patriotic, coming on the 4th of July, and all. 'Sure has me convinced.

gadfly

mirage00 said...

read Mikes report....talk about a guy trying to justify a bad product! He spends 1/2 the article talking about how great it is to fly VFR...no clearances to worry about etc. as if the fact that the Eclipse can only fly VFR is actually a good thing.

Oh please.... He notes that he is awaiting the pitot fix and like the thousands of other AD's issued for many aircraft over the years, he knows it will be done soon.

I see "bashers" posting now more about the company's survival "after all the fixes are in". That’s called "Hedging"

The "bashers" are getting restless!

I remain amused

double 00

Bonanza Pilot said...

Mirage,
Any truth to the rumor that Vern is going to start shipping a set of chocks to go with the Garmin 496....parking brakes, we don't need no stinkin brakes.

It would be great if the problems were being fixed, but this has been going backwards. We are down to a VFR plane that burns 75 GPH and goes way slower than promised because you can't get to altitude...oh and you need to have a second pilot with you, no single pilot operation. Probably a good thing, since your family won't want to climb in with you, and you will want the company. As an aside, why do you need two pilots for a VFR aircraft?

The problem with the true believers is this...you talk about how great things are going and celebrate them, yet they have fixed nothing! Fix something and then lets all celebrate. Lets all celebrate that the plane is once again single pilot IFR certified...that would be a great place to start - I would recognize that as a significant achievement, and look forward to hearing about it.

airtaximan said...

Ken:

Thanks for the spelling.

From now on, I'll make sure to spell check. I know how much the little things bother you.

I hope for your sake, E-clips discovers a tool to check the finer details of their aircraft. Seems like there are many "little" problems plaguing your aircraft. You seem to be good at seeing the forest for the trees there – actually, you make up a story about a beutiful forest, when you are looking at a swamp!

Why not be as creative/imaginative with my “fast-fingered” spelling?

Did you really not understand the point? Perhaps not - you seem to be very good at seeing what you want regarding your crippled little jet. Then again, you really have little choice – your money is GONE. Little details, I know…

Funny thing with you – even though you probably can see the point in what I write (believe me, I’m not saying you agree with me, but you can comprehend) you will nit-pick away… as much as you can, but not deal with the point.

Today your jet, after $1.X Billion dollars or more, and 9 years is no more useful than your average twin prop. Actually, it’s less useful. It’s probably less durable and reliable too. But these are just the facts.

But, in character… you are forever trying to defend your purchase, protect your deposit, and misinform the public about the airplane you bought. But that’s the Ken we’ve all come to know and love so much here…

- the one who is very focused on spelling

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FreedomsJamtarts said...

[Mike Press is addressing the >Amway< Eclipse convention]

Well whoopee folks. Thank you so much dearest Vern for convincing the FAA to limit the Partial Eclipse to DAY VFR under 18 000'. The FAA was reluctant, but Vern saved the day...

[Mike leaps up]

Gimme a V (for VFR)
Gimme a E (for Eclipse…)[the crowd roars]
Gimme a R (for resale value)
Gimme a N (for New Mexico’s taxpayers)

What does it spell……

VERN, VERN VERN… [Mike's now jumping around in his Tutu with the Pom Poms waving…should have shaved his legs though...Crowd is going crazy, behind Vern on the wall the sales ticker just hit 3200 sold]

[Once Ken and the faithful calm back down, Mike gets serious...]

I have looked into Verns soul, and here is a man I can trust!

I thought I wanted to take a business trip to close a deal, but as usual JetIncomplete helped me understand the error of my wilful ways.

Sherri was right, I didn’t really have an important meeting in ??, what I really needed was a good dose of Alabama Cholesterol. Hiring soothsayers and palm readers is an incredible disruptive technogy, another first for PartialEclipse (Reagan was in politics by then, not business, so he doesn't count)

This AD is really the greatest thing. I was always afraid of the landing flare of the Partial Eclipse with partially full tanks, but now I can be sure of nice empty tanks on all 300 mile legs. What a great design. What a lovely plane. I love Vern. Everything is fantastic.

The ramp guy was a lovely guy. He invited all his friends to see the plane. [Sales ticker clicks over to 3208...Crowd roars]

This stop saved us quite a bit of money. Jet A was $3.15 a gallon, but the Ramp guys Mum worked at Macdonalds, and sold me the used cooking oil for only .50c a gallon. Wow. that is great. I love my AD. I love my plane. I love Vern. [Mike's pom poms are really flying here...Verns on his Blackberry checking the IPO timer].

You can be sure that I will be getting Jet InComplete to plan all destinations based on fuel price. Hell, I can finally do that extended tour of the Middle East and Venezuala!

Another thing I really love to bits about flying my jet VFR is the view. I love grazing out the window at the ground going past. Thats why I am soo happy that I get new windows every 300H's. Vern is great. Vern is wonderful! We love Vern. Having Window LRU's that never need cleaning is such a distruptive technolgy. Vern is a genious. I love Vern! I love my Partial Eclipse.

redtail said...

mouse said...
Gadfly, I personally added 400 lbs of ballast to the nose to keep the plane from tipping over for rollout. Fact, not fokelore...

Mouse, why don't you tell us the rest of the story... The airframe hasn't changed that much, so either your story is total bull, or there was test equipment installed in the rear cabin, or some installations in the nose or forward cabin had not been completed yet. Well, what was it? I guess those details just slipped your mind since it has been five years since you were there.

flightguy said...

Redtail,

If Eclipse hasn't changed that much since the the original engine changes then someone at Eclipse produced an airframe modification program that no one needed for the PWC. Perhaps, Mike Harness did nothing for years for Eclipse as previously mentioned.

Mouse,

Thanks for coming forward. Whether you worked 5 years ago at Eclipse and not presently is irrelevant to the EJ22 story. Everything, AND I MEAN EVERYTHING, I have heard before from alternate sources at varouis stages over the years. It would be kinda coincidental to make up these claims over the years from different sources. Don't let the faithful try to break down your credibility. After all, we're all online and a handle can be staged, which has been demonstrated here several times by the same individual. The beauty of the blog is that honest people can speak honestly without being restrained by "gag orders" or individuals with the "small man" complex. This industry is too small.

The Real Frank Castle said...

RedAss sez:

"Gee Frankie. I guess the guys around you in the cubes know what was accomplished in ABQ, but you just can't handle hearing about it. Go back to your slide rule, and get in touch with reality."

Gee, Red, show me what they did. They built a plane that can't be flown as advertised, and they bailed to come back to Papa.

Gee, Red, maybe they have such a hard time realizing they were working for nothing, moved their families around, real estate, etc, and nothing to show for it. WHY ?

Because there IS NOTHING to show for it. They should have stayed where they were and they would have been better off. To learn a lesson from a bloodletting is no lesson at all.

EO3sumpin:

"Stan and Ken,

Yes, I am ignoring your requests until I know for sure the outcome of my dealings and fully understand confidentiality obligations that may apply. I am not saying I agree with any potential cofidentiality obligations but I also don't believe in violating contractual agreements."

Well, thank you. Proves my point about making a deal. Will you be able to share how much you are saving over regular price for your silence ?

If I went down to the local dealer, and had to sign away my personal business, ie, make a deal to keep my mouth shut, until they can make me a real jet, I'd tell 'em to kiss my a$$ and then I would tear up the check.

If you own it, it's yours to do with as you damn well please. You can tear the thing apart, or fly it into a lake. Your business. Your property. Confidentiality agreement be damned.

I also copy all CD's I buy. I own them. You lost your rights when you put them out on the free market. Same justification.

You think you want to try and tell me where I will or will not fly/drive/walk ?

Won't happen.