Friday, August 31, 2007

Heard Similar Reports Before

But none as detailed as what FLY ON WALL provided this evening:

It's crunch time in production!

It is end of August and not even close to one a day. Aircraft stacking up with out wings to install, mandatory long work days, local 12 week trainee's pouring in with backgrounds in JR-High teaching, Grocery tellers, auto mechanics,... Management believes you can snap an aircraft together just as you would a automobile. The few that are left with real aviation backgrounds are being ignored while EX-Ford and Intel engineers try to stumble through it all.

The line is a mess, they have moved tooling around to create two production lines, but the Techs are crawling all over one another trying to complete jobs and fix NCR's from up the line.

Aircraft do not simply bolt together. As with all aircraft there is always craftsmanship involved. Parts need trimming and things get laid out by hand. Each of the thousands of fastener holes are precision drilled and reamed and this takes skill. The tooling is some what substandard in many of the cells. This leads to out of contour fuselages and other parts having to be tweeked to fit.

The work force on the floor has become very discouraged with the constant change in work schedules, disorganization, and leadership changes. Many leads have stepped down and the turn over rate of quality mechanics is high. Throwing 12 week wonders on the line will only make matters worse as NCR's litter the aircraft from poor workmanship of unskilled mechanics.

Then added:

Well I am sorry to say that management and some engineers do not want to hear from Aviation experts on how to build the plane. There are people in the company that can help but all they get is how Ford would do it.

And:

I have never seen an aircraft facility so cluttered with parts laying around stacked unprotected on shelves, FOD littering the floor, tables, and inside of aircraft. Tool control is out of control. The beautiful orange snap-on tool boxes are a mess with tools missing and empty drawers. The company has spent thousands on tools and just sat back and watch as they walk out the doors and get left in aircraft.


Ok here is the scoop on NCR's. Techs and inspectors point out problems on the aircraft at times using a sharpie. Then go back and write up the items creating either NCR's or squawks. Many times the marks are left if no one wipes them off , like under the floors. But these items are being fixed and re inspected.

They are not building one a day. Not even every other day. Go take a tour of the place and see. The line is not even completely full.

Fly, thanks for coming forward, it is not a pretty picture.

235 comments:

1 – 200 of 235   Newer›   Newest»
Gunner said...

We also heard from Black Tulip in this round that someone he knows had his position number suddenly crunched almost in half....from #14XX to #8XX.

I wonder if that guy is feeling like he just got hung up in a logging chain as his wooden partner heads stoically to the mill?

Oops, it just got worse....I'm not travelin' the "round the yard" conveyor; I'm in the Express Lane!!

Gunner

Gunner said...

Sometimes gnawing off an arm is not the worst fate, Brothers and Sisters. ;-)
Gunner

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gunner said...

9Z-
Consider this:
It costs more $$$ to purchase and assemble aircraft than it does to give the workforce a few to play with.

If $$$ were the limiting factor in your life expectancy, which would you choose?

This book will be a Best Seller, hands down.
Gunner

cj3driver said...

Alexa said;

“…You got six on one corner screaming how horrible Eclipse is (in your case why everyone should buy a CJ)…”

Alexa,

Hey,,, I remember when I got my first Jet. I tried to talk to as many people as possible. I can assure you, anyone considering an Eclipse, will eventually find this Blog. Just try typing “Eclipse Aviation” or “Eclipse Aircraft” on google. This blog is now #2 … above wikipedia, and just below Eclipse’s own home page. When I first found this blog, it was pages back.

I can assure you, most people interested in making a deposit on an Eclipse will read this blog. I can tell you I had read this blog at least 4 months before logging in. And really, the main reasons I did was because of Ken. So, I guess you can say, the faithful on this blog, actually help promote it!

That 60% unsecured deposit is a lot of money. Even for a person who can afford a $2,000,000 toy. There are 350 members of the 500 club. I can assure you if I was an Eclipse depositor (I almost was), I would check this blog from time to time. Even if I didn’t agree with everything the critics bring up, it would still help with questions next time I talk to the Eclipse factory.

I do think its strange that there are only 350 members of the 500 club. I would think anyone who put a deposit down would be very interested in everything Eclipse. I know I was with CJ’s.

And, yes … I do think everyone should have a CJ3.

…. Well, … most everyone.

EclipseOwner387 said...

9Z,

Did you watch the video tour that was posted on this blog and took place Aug 23 IIRC? Seemed pretty busy then.

cj3driver said...

EO,

Do you know the status of #71?

Vern claimed it was just starting down the line on the video (Aug 13th).

AlexA said...

CJ3Driver,

As M00 reminds us ”Just trying to keep it real”

1. Spurned vendors
2. Competitors
-Eads
-Diamond
-Cirrus
-Cessna
3. Eclipse Depositors
4. Turbo-prop owners
5. Fired Employees
6. Disgruntled workers
7. D-Jet Depositors
8. Cirrus The-jet depositors
9. Disgruntled FAA guys
10. One PO’d former customer

It’s all about motive.

EclipseOwner387 said...

cj3,

No I do not know.

421Jockey said...

CJ3,

regarding your post on #71, it is in the middle postion on the first (of 2) line in Preliminary assembly. When Vern said that #71 was started, it was technically started, but still 5 days from the first fixture position in prelim ass'y.

All aircraft are backed up in Final Assembly due to the wing tank problem discussed earlier.

#47 was scheduled to receive C of A on Thursday, I do not know if this ocurred.

Wings are the current bottleneck.

421Jock

airtaximan said...

Alexa:

you forgot,

One airtaximan, afraid that Dayjet will destroy his business...

Well that was the faithfull theory, until explained that real jet operators will probably benefit from Dayjet if by some chance they are successful.

Anyone reading your description of the critics will see its false.

On the other hand, those like Ken, have a lot of their money at stake, and apparently will write anything at all to try to mask the realities of your favorite aircraft non-manufacturer.

Many, many people look to this as a resource. In fact, Ken's name and yours, as well as Mirage have been brought up by collegues in discussion about this blog. I do not think you would be flattered about the comments about you guys who are seen as "the make up of an e-clips buyer".

EclipseOwner387 said...

Fabled Tulip,

I think it could be a good thing that Stan has the AFM. I suggested it a few days ago. I am curious to find out if he sincerely sees something hugely disappointing in the AFM.

I am also going to ask Mike Press to take Stan on a flight since he will have studied the AFM - make a good co-pilot!

8-D

EclipseOwner387 said...

421Jock,

Good info. Are you a position holder?

421Jockey said...

EO,

Yes, mid 60's

airtaximan said...

Dayjet going to Europe...

someone please recognize that I've been calling it Euro-ed for a long time, now....

hahhah!

** ther are rumored to be around 40 independent VLJ operators-in-waiting in europe, until now, mostsly non-eclips, except fot the easter-euro-Ed friend of Vern.

NBAA should be an entertaining show this year. I wonder how Vern and Ed are going to remain in the "mystery" category and avoid the "comedy" genre. Maybe it will be the basis for a History channel feature next year?

ken, keep the jewels coming...and dream on.

airtaximan said...

EO's next question for 421 jock...

interested in SELLING!

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

In response to Eclipse policy on delaying your 60% deposit for a later serial number, I think their approach is to work with the buyer to find someone who may want to swap. I don't think they just allow you to fall back in the SN line and delay. Actions that I have heard taken by people in that exact situation is what makes me believe this to be their policy. However, I have not directly asked Eclipse about it and I could be wrong.

EclipseOwner387 said...

421Jock,

Are they still telling you to expect delivery in September? And I wasn't going to ask to buy it. Are you selling? Just kidding!

;-)

WhyTech said...

ATM said:

"I do not think you would be flattered about the comments about you guys who are seen as "the make up of an e-clips buyer".

Quite a revelation and a situation I often wonder about. Every now and then, I push back from the computer for a few days and avoid the temptation to save the Faithful from themselves, in order to gain some perspective on what happens on this blog.

If the Faithful who show up here deliberately tried, I doubt they could do more harm to the E-clips cause. Amazing behavior, and as I have previously stated, a real lesson in life.

WT

EclipseOwner387 said...

WT,

I thought being a pilot was going to be like joining a fraternity (which I never did.) Brothers in Arms. Unfortunately I am finding it to be littered with egomaniacs that ruin that image. It is more akin to a bunch of musicians. They tend to think the other guys stuff stinks unless you bendover and kiss their butt and embrace their "style of music."

I really thought being a pilot would be different. Kind of sad. I understand that flying is a passionate thing but lets remember that most on this blog share that same passion. They have passed the same tests and haven't killed themselves (yet.) Let's move away from stereotyping. The position holders are defending their style of music. I think it is good. It helps us all learn. Stop trying to belittle the efforts.

Gunner said...

EO-
Thanks for your usual honesty regarding the Eclipse Depositor position Policy. Yes, I understand that you've not declared anything definitive, and that's the honest part.

Here's my point on that:
Many pilots don't want to buy a new design early in the run, from a start-up company. I'd have gladly taken Mustang 001 if I was in that market and it was available. Diamond? I didn't want Year 1 Production. Eclipse? I didn't want Year 1 or 2 Production.

So, now we have this guy, mentioned by Black Tulip, who has allegedly been moved from SN 14XX to SN 8XX. If they can do that, they can certainly "compress" the order book again, moving him to SN 3XX.

Maybe the guy WANTED 1300+ EA50X's flying before loading up the kids in one? This is not hypothetical...this is the preference of MANY aircraft owners.

Where's this guy gonna turn when he finds out he can't move back further than SN419, because that's the end of the line?

Will Eclipse refund his deposit? You and I both know that's a rhetorical question. But, I think we're in agreement as to the ultimate answer.
Gunner

Gunner said...

"The position holders are defending their style of music. I think it is good. It helps us all learn. Stop trying to belittle the efforts."

From your lips to their ears, EO. The emotionally charged posts here are predominantly from The Faithful; the personal attacks, mostly from The Faithful of late; the innuendo and weak attempts at character assassination, too; the hate filled "spews"...you got it...The Faithful.

Ask yourself this, however:
Why is it that you haven't developed the same reputation as some of them? Why aren't your posts met with a hail of criticism and ridicule? How is it that The Skeptics engage you regularly in reasonable exchange?

It's not like you're the Uncle Tom of Eclipse Aviation. You're a staunch defender of the company and a BETTER voice for them than all the Drive By Bros combined.

The answer is quite simple:
You don't treat other pilots as though they're stupid or naive. You don't knock other products to make your JetProp look better than it is. And you don't attack the messenger when you don't like the message.

So, that's you...a stand-up Eclipse Defender, embraced by The Skeptics.

Show me your counterpart, embraced by The Faithful. There ain't one. And that's what we call "a clue".

Gunner

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

Good questions BUT that scenario is unrealistic. The major compression has occurred and their are still positions in the 1000's. Also, with the delays, anyone in the higher numbers are probably welcoming some compression. Just some thoughts.

Gunner said...

"The major compression has occurred and their are still positions in the 1000's."

That's speculation, EO. WILD speculation. Would you have believed, 6 months ago, that the company was gonna simply contract its Order Book by 25% overnight? What makes you think that's the only contraction to come?

I, for one, am not buying it.
Gunner

WhyTech said...

Gunner said:

"You're a staunch defender of the company and a BETTER voice for them than all the Drive By Bros combined. "

BMOB (EO),

I agree with Gunner on this, however, your MTOO (mean time of ownership) of 7 minutes doesnt exactly inspire confidence in E-clips. (I know its really more like 7 weeks, just making a point, and 7 weeks vs 7 minutes = point still valid)

What I am objecting to is not so much the content as the style: rude, rigid, and mean spirited much of the time. Who wants to hang out with folks like that? A spirited discussion with points made and accepted on both sides is great, but is not what is seen here much of the time.

WT

Black Tulip said...

I will try to learn more about the delivery acceleration mentioned to me by a depositor last week.

Black Tulip

EclipseOwner387 said...

Speculation that positions in the 1000's? If that is your point I stated that based on the fact someone on the EC5 club has one for sale. Recent posting. If you are questioning whether tha major compression has occurred then you are right. Educated speculation based upon the position spread that I have heard of and how the numbers have changed. Like Position 125 is now 111 IIRC. The one BT referenced appears similar to another story I heard. It is my belief we won't see SN800 for instance go down more that a few (or dozen) slots. Not hundreds. I don't agree with wild speculation.

EclipseOwner387 said...

WT,

The Eclipse I will keep will be an AeroMod airplane with AVIO NG. I made that decision because my JetProp is serving me very well. I have just ordered the WAAS upgrades to my JetProp and I am adding the GMX 200. If anyone is looking to do the same I will be glad to share some tips on how to do it as low cost as possible (the GMX 200 that is.) I got the radar version of the GMX 200 so you guys convinced me to keep the radar.

Gunner said...

BT-
If he WAS in the 1400's and has been "compressed" to the 800's, let's do the math. I was at 1317 in July 2006, when the company had 2,500 "deposit backed" orders. Taking away the Turkish(?) order late in the year, on Dec 31, they were still touting 2,500 orders.

1,317 in July '06. This guy is at 1,4XX. Does anyone REALLY believe between the time of his order and today, Eclipse has netted another 400-500 Deposits? I highly doubt it.

Confirmation of his story would shed much light on the situation at ABQ.
Gunner

Gunner said...

EO-
Sure, give me absolutely zero credit for your decision to go with the Radar'd GMX 20. Ya bastige!
;-)
Gunner

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"ordered the WAAS upgrades to my JetProp and I am adding the GMX 200"

See, a constructive post! I am about to do pretty much the same in my Pilatus and have spec'd my helicopter the same way: GMX200 (replacing an MX20), WAAS upgrades to the Garmin 530's, and GDL 69A receiver for XM weather (replacing WSI weather) and XM radio. One glitch I am encountering with this is displaying a VDI (vertical deviation indicator) on the Honeywell EFS 50 EFIS diaplay for LNAV/VNAV and LPV approaches. Honeywell says they are working on it, but have a stated schedule for completion of Sep 2008. How will you display the VDI in your JetProp? The FAA is fairly particular about how this is done to obtain certification.

WT

Black Tulip said...

Whytech,

We have a similar situation… dual Garmin 530s installed and waiting for the upgrade. It is not clear when or if Meggitt will update the flight director and autopilot to accept vertical deviation information.

Black Tulip

WhyTech said...

BT said:

"It is not clear when or if"

Pilatus owners were in this situation until we ganged up on Pilatus to put pressure on Honeywell to do it. Now its just a matter of when (we hope). Not clear who could wield a club with Meggitt in your case.

WT

Black Tulip said...

WT,

I believe the Meridian owners have the biggest installed base of Meggitt equipment. I'll have to look in on them and see if they have some muscle.

Black Tulip

EclipseOwner387 said...

WT,

I had WAAS upgraded on my 1985 Malibu and it has the KCS55 HSI. It tied into the glideslope seamlessly (wasn't even mentioned quite frankly.) My JetProp has the same HSI so I suspect it will be a non-issue. (Unless I misunderstood your question.) Did you trade in your MX20 towards the GMX200?

Gunner,

Thanks for the help on the GMX200 idea. You still loving yours?

;-)

Stan Blankenship said...

As promised I am going to start on a new post this morning, but I am suprised there is not more concern regarding Fly's report. It backs up similar reports we have heard in the last few days.

This is not the way to run an aircraft factory...it is not the way the FAA will allow an aircraft factory to be run.

As users, many of you may not understand the implications of Fly's allegations.

The protocols set forth in the Production Certificate are sacrosanct. They are to be followed to the letter 100% of the time...with no exceptions...with painstaking detail.

Not exactly the picture being presented.

WhyTech said...

EO said:

" it has the KCS55 HSI."

The problem raises it ugly head only on electronic displays which put up a symbol for the VDI. The FAA wants a different color and shape for WAAS approaches to make it clear to the pilot that he is NOT flying an ILS glide slope. With an electromechanical inidcator like the KCS 55 system, I believe this is not a peroblem because the FAA allows a separate switching panel to be used to select/indicate which vertical guiance source is being used. Should not be a problem for you.

One other issue you have apparently resolved: the GMX 200 does not support WSI NEXRAD weather, so unless you are already using XM, you will need a new wx receiver. (In the more than you might want to know category: Garmin has implemented WSI weather on the Fedex fleet of Caravans which use GMX200's. Garmin has told me that this is a custom installation paid for by Fedex and is not available to other GMX200 users. I have a slight preference for WSI NEXRAD, so am disappointed about being forced to move to XM.)

WT

EclipseOwner387 said...

Stan,

How do you explain that the FAA hasn't taken action? What FLY says concerns me but where is the proof? There are always two sides to every story. Is FLY going to the FAA? Where are the whistleblowers? Posting on a blog - that is not doing your duty. Lets face it, this blog is not as important as it believes. I disagree that most Eclipse buyers find this site. I enjoy the blog but we are not the FAA. FLY is not really accomplishing much posting here. GO TO THE FAA. BLOW THE WHISTLE. Anything stated from anonymous sources has to be taken with a grain of salt. Let the company defend itself in a fair forum.

Black Tulip said...

Stan,

Your point is well taken. I guess we’ve read about this with increasing frequency and are numb to it.

Does the FAA conduct surprise inspections of factories they have approved? The FDA certainly does and it keeps people on their toes. Airplanes… medical devices… you’d think safety was paramount to both.

Black Tulip

Gunner said...

EO-
Still loving mine, yes. Unfortunately, the Baron's been in for Annual & Druthers....them Druthers really add up!

WT-
I've not flown WSI, myself ad am interested in why you prefer it over XM. Please expand. For me, it was a no-brainer. I had the 530 in the plane when I decided to upgrade to WAAS and Weather (thanks to EO who started me down that road when he explained all the Garmin hand-held features).

In the end, I just felt the integration and upgrade potential of the GMX-200 with the 530 would be greater than with an Avidyne counterpart.

My biggest complaint about XM....no online fuel price DB. That's a business we need to get into and license to 'em!

Stan-
I actually hadn't realized that the FAA still monitors ops, once PC is granted. I simply ASS-umed the company can sign off on its own unless or until such time as finished and flying aircraft showed problems.

Makes sense that they'd maintain a current interest in what's happening, however. Do FAA Inspectors remain on site after PC is awarded? Are there regular inspections?

Needless to say, Fly's post should be corroborated. However, HotDog, who also appears to be in the loop, pretty much confirmed from his own perspective.

There were two other major snippets we received last night:
1) BT's info that 600 paid deposits have simply disappeared from the order book. That would be huge, if confirmed and, without putting words into EO's mouth, he seems to have received the same info.

2) The announcement of Euro-DayJet. This company is destined to be worldwide before they start operations! ;-)

Gunner

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"Anything stated from anonymous sources has to be taken with a grain of salt."

Right. It might be totally wrong, partly wrong , or substantially accurate. Those who care have the option of pursuing it farther as a result of the post.

WT

WhyTech said...

Gunner said:

"why you prefer it (WSI) over XM"

I find that some of the WSI pages are more useful than XM. Most important to me is the echo tops page. On WSI, the tops are labeled with a legend that shows altitude of the return, direction and speed the echo is moving. On XM, no such info - just gradations of gray color to didicate the altitude, with no direction or speed info. Almost useless when picking one's way through wx. I also believe (perhaps incorrectly) that WSI does more preprocessing of the raw data, providing an overall more useful wx depiction. Its a slight preference for WSI, not an overwhelming one.

WT

Gunner said...

Thanks much for the info, WT.
Gunner

WhyTech said...

Gunner said:

"My biggest complaint about XM....no online fuel price DB."

I use AirNav in flight planning to select my fuel stops. While I do care what fuel costs, if I am forced to deviate from my planned fuel stop due to wx or maintenence, its a cost of running the airplane, and it happens so seldom that it is of little consequence overall.

You probably know all about AirNav - even provides customer critiques of the FBO's which I find at least as useful as the fuel info. If you havent been to their site, check it out. Lots of good info, and so far, free.

WT

Stan Blankenship said...

EO,

Mouse provided the answer to your question yesterday against the previous post:

quote

The FAA does not care how messy, stupid or sloppy Eclipse is, right up until they hang a certificate of airworthiness on it, then it falls onto the FAA ballfield. The feds could care less if they build one airplane per day, quarter, year, or century.

The feds don't even write the rules, they let Eclipse right their own rules, just like any other mfg or operator. They do however enforce you to the rules you submitted.

Any shortfalls do not show up on the FAA's radar until someone in the field reports an issue. Since Eclipse now has PC Eclipse signs off their own C of A's, and the Feds don't get to look at the planes anymore.

end quote

Turboprop_pilot said...

I've had many inflight weather systems, starting with Echoflight, then WSI, King and now XM. WSI was the best, with better graphics and more features.

XM is OK except for their poor customer service (reps who mainly do radio entertainment, long times on hold and NO documentation for aviation radios) and a very bad encryption scheme where they turn off your access according to some pattern of disuse (some say not enough use during a month, some say every six months) and you then have to call and ask for an activation signal to be sent (again with long hold times). Imagine if you took off into bad weather and found they had shut you off! WSI are weather pros with much better customer service.

I heard from our esteemed local flight surgeon that Meggitt is supposed to have Garmin WAAS software tested and certified by January. The MMOPA web site has several threads about this (and XM weather) as Meridians have the most to gain. You may be able access as read only at www.mmopa.com

WhyTech said...

tp said:

"they (XM) turn off your access according to some pattern of disuse "

Do you know how this works? Since the service is one way, it would seem that for this to happen, there would have to be logic (software) in your receiver that monitors useage and turns off the service. I have at least a half dozen XM radios (entertainment not wx) and havent experienced this so far. My gripe with WSI is that they are forcing all users to change receivers as they transition to the Sirius satellite system.

All that said, if the GMX 200 supported WSI weather, I'd stick with WSI.

WT

Gunner said...

WT-
I use AirNav, yes, but I tend to be pretty Loosie-Goosie about calling alternates and fuel stops. Most of my flights tend to be just outside my one-leg range and, when heading west, the Gulf Routes are often unavailable by the time I'm in the air.

As a result, I generally call my stops enroute, depending on the weather ahead and/or my need to make a schedule arrival time.

Getting the AirNav (or counterpart) info in the air would be a real plus.
Gunner

fly in the ointment said...

I can corroberate fly on the walls statement.Lots of flies buzzing around here at SP11.In the past we have had early warning that the FAA would be on site, so we could clean up.

Gunner said...

FlyII-
Welcome. Kevlar vests are available for rental in the main lobby.
;-)
Gunner

WhyTech said...

BMOB (EO) said:

"Did you trade in your MX20 towards the GMX200?"

Sorry, I missed this question earlier. I dont know yet. I am just at the point of getting a quote from my shop. My guess is that they will offer me peanuts for the MX20, in which case I may try to sell it on eBay.

WT

EclipseOwner387 said...

WT,

Actually the trade in is worth up to $6,000 ($7k if you have an active chartview program.)

http://www8.garmin.com/whatsNew/current
promotions/pdfs/mfd_tradein.pdf

However - It may make more sense to sell on Ebay and trade in a cheap Argus.

dcrum@yahoo.com if you want more details.

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"($7k if you have an active chartview program.)"

If my dealer/Garmin will do this, it a done deal.

WT

WhyTech said...

Aviation insurance markets:

The competition evolving in the aviation insurance markets will likey benefit E-clips owners. I just received a renewal quote from my broker for the coming yaer (PC-12) and for the first time, I was able to buy $10mm in CSL liability coverage, while the premium declined 10% from the current year (with $5mm CSL liability). This is the first time I can remember in 25 years when something like this happened with acft insurance. I assume this is happening across the board.

WT

airtaximan said...

Airtaximan's wild speculation on the orderbook compression...

1- I do not think the total order book numbers changed recently, IOW, 600 positions did not just evaporate

2- I believe the story of someone being told their position is being advanced 600 places, could be true.

3- If it is true, there's a simple explanation. Dayjet has 1430 orders, and options that are littered throughout the order book. In the presentation I posted from Dayjet, there was a bullet about "priority" on deliveries for fleet customers and individual owners. It appears as if there is some decision making that can happen regarding individuals/Dayjet delivery-positions, that can take place on an ongoing basis.

4- we know that Dayjet did not pay many progress payments, becasue they did not have the money back then, even for their 229 orders. Remember, they have stated they have 1/2 the first years production, and back then, this was hundreds and hundreds of deliveries.

5- So, based on the Dayjet "orders being "subject to change" regarding when deliveries need to be made... I suspect there's been an adjustment n the Dayjet orders, from the initial "positions" that were (temporarily?) assigned to them as "placeholders"

6- why? simple. Individuals part with their progress payment money easier than Dayjet. So, Dayjet placeholder positions move back, and individual move ahead, so they can pony up their cash.

Just one airtaximan's observations and theories on the rumored orderbook shuffle recently. We do not knwo if this is the case, but at least it fits with the history and the MO of e-clips and Dayjet.

airtaximan said...

The difference between EO and the die-hards, is he never got "stuck" by e-clips. That's why I love this guy. He is definately the smartest and most credible person here. He has studied the company, their product, the program, the problems, the successes, the marketing, the PR, Vern's statements and the market reaction.

He has bought and sold positions, e-500's and has made money all along.

He has a clear goal, and a clear understanding of the workings of the market and the company. He's taken full advantage of the situation.

The die-hards are in a completely different frame of mind, and in a completely different position. Perhaps, they have been taken full advantage of.

Gunner said...

AT said:
"That's why I love this guy."

Pretty strong words for a "hater". ;-)
Gunner

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Stan,

As someone like yourself who has done both direct and consultant work with certification elements I find Mouse, Fly and FlyII's info, sometimes corroborated by Execlipser and others, including current and former vendors, to be compelling and it indicates signficant challenges ahead.

I am sure you know but the operators may not be aware, even with ODAR, TC\PC and company and consultant DER's and DAR's on-site, the Adminstrator or their authorized representative CAN go onsite and request any data they want. The ODAR, the PC, everything exists for the convenience of and at the discretion of the FAA.

FAA personal are typical beaurocrats in my experience, not out to rock the boat, and in fact just out to get to retirement - but when confronted with evidence suggesting serious issues they will act - as they did a few years back when they nearly closed the Cessna plant in Independence for serious quality escapes.

They have also been close to shutting down work at Beech, and other OEM's when they do not follow the rules. Normally it just takes the threat of it and the company straightens up and flies right - but with Eclipse I no longer believe they demonstrate the ability think and act rationally as demonstrated by what we are hearing from more and more current and ex-insiders and vendors here.

To answer why Mouse or Fly, etc., has not gone to the FAA I can say that most employees, especially those who are dedicated to their employers are very hesitant to go the FAA. Add in the intimidation environment at Eclipse (from the corner office on down), the threatened and actual lawsuits against former employees and vendors, and I think it is easy to understand that most folks simply lack the image of themselves as heroic persons and do not therefore blow the proverbial whistle believing other will do it, or if sionce others have not they should not either, no matter how concerned they may be.

I have been there, done that, and I have the Tee-shirt.

Others have said it in no uncertain terms - unfortunately it takes accidents (like discharging fire extinguishers on the production line - or worse) to bring attention to the rotten core.

Someone asked why there are no Diamond Critic Blogs, or Cessna Critic Blogs and I will say again - because they have not earned one - Vern on the other hand has taken this and raised it to an art form.

airtaximan said...

Gunner,

check my posts from months ago...I said it then, I'll say it now - this guy gets a lot of respect.

funny though. I can't wait until he's banished by the die-hards!

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Would also add that I have heard that at least two, possibly more FAA MIDO personnel have been replaced at Eclipse's insistence.

I know the gentlemen in question and hold them in high regard. I know them to be very dedicated and capable.

One wonders why an OEM would want to have such good apples removed?

airtaximan said...

strange times..

one would have to believe all of the following falls on deaf ears, and is comlete BS, to think that no one but 12 folks cares what's on this blog...

1) e-clips cannot produce a quality plane, and needs to have FAA personnele removed to continue to pass planes onto customers

2) e-clips is moving delivery positions around in order to get progress payments from more unsuspecting individual owners

3) one-per-day means reconfiguring a production line to maybe produce more planes... instead of "we'll achieve rate production of one-per-day in August... they produced half as many planes as they did in July.

4) the company is burning tons of cash every week, and is basically out of money by NBAA

5) airplane number 71 just went into production - so...what happend to the money ($600 million or so) rasied and deposited as progress-payments since TC??? The company had 51 planes in production in Q-1 2007 - they've STARTED another 20 planes? THAT'S IT? "Houston, we have a problem".

6) all the technical fixes, mods, and new avionics are on schedule, more or less.

7) high turnover rate, around 40% (annually) is being reported - in a factory that apparently requires a lot of skilled labor, despite promoting the idea that this plane was designed for high rate production since 2000.

8) no reaction from E-clips despite NA Jet flying the first part 135 revenue flight in an e-clips - even if it was their own investors.

9) August came and went, and Dayjet did not launch - but they are apparently talking about a euro-dayjet program, coming soon!

10) The con-jet is an new excuse for raising money, and will be offered for sale, soon enough.

11) Supplier deliveries have been stopped at e-clips.

12) there are components and parts in inventory, yet they are just lying around gathering dust.

13) the explosion of PhosterX canisters on the assembly line last week indicates some pretty horrendous quality and manufacturing issues - how can a sealed system explode in the factory on the assembly line, without this indicating a mjor problem with employees, parts, or proceedures?

14) some "major" fractional ownership companies are going make huge orders for e-500 planes very soon - this intel provided by Ken.

15- euro cert for the 500 is going nowhere fast

16- insurance is getting less expensive to obtain

17- there's a guy emailing anyone in the industry regarding buying his plane with only 20 hours on it.

18- and, there are 46 listings for e-500 on controller amgazine (indicative, not definative) THE MOST EVER since they began to appear

I thnk this blog is terrific. Many issues have been raised and found their way to the forefront of the media, first brought up here.

Enjoy

EclipseOwner387 said...

Check showed up today. Exactly the amount I thought it would be. It is going to pay for my avionics upgrades! Cheers Eclipse!


:-D

Tuesday is still a go as well. Going to be a fun ride. Got to love aviation!

Gunner said...

Congrats, on the check.
Good luck on Tuesday.
Gunner

Stan Blankenship said...

coldfish,

Don't disagree with anything you have written.

Also, with Marion leaving the scene 09-13, the FAA's working staff may re-assert their authority to enforce the rules.

There may be a new dawn emerging in ABQ.

mirage00 said...

Don't disagree with anything you have written.

Also, with Marion leaving the scene 09-13, the FAA's working staff may re-assert their authority to enforce the rules.

There may be a new dawn emerging in ABQ.


Priceless!

I REMAIN AMUSED!!!!!!

double 00

gadfly said...

A long time ago, in the scheme of things, I was in a position of authority. The company for whom I worked, and was the general manager, had an excellent product . . . it (the product) still is. But the major ownership was in the hands of others, and it was obvious that things were going in a bad direction. It was a difficult time . . . my salary was excellent, my needs were great, I had an excellent reputation, etc., . . . but it was obvious that I had to make a decision based on ethics. I gave my resignation . . . three weeks . . . “You can’t quit, you are fired!” And so, I made the long journey back to my office, cleaned out my desk, etc., under “close supervision” of my boss’s secretary, and went on to other and, eventually, much greater things. But making that decision, under great pressure, was not easy. Yet, not for a minute do I regret that day. It cost me, and my family much, but I can look myself in the mirror (well, let’s not carry that too far), and know that I did the right thing before God on that day.

There may be people in the company in question, that find themselves in a similar circumstance . . . I suspect that such is the case. I cannot speak for them, but if I knew that things were wrong, I would repeat what I did “back then”, and act according to good ethics. You may not understand the relief and freedom, having done the “right thing”, in spite of public opinion, and the overall pressures of the time. It is never an easy decision, but there are greater things involved than the immediate success of any company.

In the context of the immediate, I see some who would “cloud” the issues by name-calling, etc. Some claim to be interested in the “technical problems” of the little jet . . . and the problems are many, yet these same individuals will raise a “cloud of dust”, to obscure the issues, going back to character attack.

Some day, the little jet will (if it survives) make safe travel based on certain physical laws, and certain standards of quality in manufacture and excellence in design. It will not be based on personal insults, name-calling, “red herrings”, etc. It will be required to fly the distance, at the altitude, at the speed, with the payload that it claims. It’s that simple! Or maybe, that’s the problem . . . it’s far more difficult than the average blogger, buyer, or investor, even has a clue. And probably far more difficult than any of the founders began to realize when they conceived this entire scenario. It is dangerous enough, when you are an expert in the field . . . far more dangerous when you’ve never before been in this business.

gadfly

(Oh, the company for whom I worked? . . . well, the “feds” finally did their thing . . . 82 counts of interstate fraud (the local New Mexico state officials did nothing), . . . my ex boss served time in one of those federally funded tennis clubs . . . got out . . . and has since passed on. By the way, I liked the guy . . . brilliant, but just didn’t understand that it’s “OK” to make money, and promote a business ethically, and (ultimately) legally. And here’s an interesting “aside”: the same company made the mock-up of the wing of the B1 Bomber, to lay out the hydraulic system . . . did an excellent job, by the way . . . and in Albuquerque.)

Black Tulip said...

Mirage00,

‘Priceless!’

Did you personally send this response? Or do you have your computer programmed to occasionally transmit a random message, followed by your signature. In either case, what are we to make of it? You provided a meaningless comeback to a meaningful exchange of information.

Black Tulip

mirage00 said...

You provided a meaningless comeback to a meaningful exchange of information.>

Explain what is possibly meaningful with this statement.

Also, with Marion leaving the scene 09-13, the FAA's working staff may re-assert their authority to enforce the rules.

There may be a new dawn emerging in ABQ.


It's the same old rediculous reference to a "Conspiracy". And it is truely priceless.

I remain amused

double 00

Black Tulip said...

Mirage00 said,

It's the same old rediculous reference to a "Conspiracy".

I think you meant ridiculous. Rediculous means something else… probably… no doubt.

Now you’ve got me amused.

Red Tulip, er…

Black Tulip

gadfly said...

An open letter to Stan:

Stan,

You have been a most gracious host of your website. A couple times you have reprimanded me, and all done in excellent manner.

‘Would that we, who share our thoughts with each other, at your invitation, could refrain from the cheap shots based more on emotion than intelligent discourse.

In your business, and to a much lesser amount, my business, the success of the little jet would be applauded . . . benefiting not just “us”, but General Aviation . . . expanding the potential of manufacturing in the field that we love and understand. (In my own case, we work for a competitor of “P&W”, yet at a level that has no relevance in this discussion . . . the engines involved are for the “big boys”.)

But many, who do not understand our true motives, base their comments on imagined presuppositions. And that is to be regretted.

If the company in question were truly successful, it would greatly benefit all of us in the Albuquerque area, both directly, and indirectly.

The manufacturing companies in Albuquerque have been taken down the garden path more than a few times by startup companies . . . ones that no longer exist. (And to be fair, the “local politicians” have taken many major companies down that same garden path . . . and most have moved out.) We are more than a little bit “gun shy”. And when a “new” company is not “squeaky clean”, we have earned the right to be more than a little bit skeptical. Things in New Mexico do not move forward at the fast pace of say, Southern California (my native home), but sometimes the slower pace gives us opportunity to observe the “new comer”, and make evaluation as to the total picture.

So far, the local “media” is afraid to speak out . . . and that is their problem (they are in trouble these days, barely surviving, as circulation continues to drop).

That leaves just your very special “blogsite” to inform potential buyers, and maybe more important, potential passengers, of the very real and present problems related to air-travel on this little jet.

So much more could be said, but intelligent folks will figure out the remainder . . . or point them toward further investigation.

gadfly

Black Tulip said...

Mirage00,

Let’s call it a draw and close out the account for this evening. If your handle derives from your aircraft ownership, the Eclipse may make sense for you. My friends and acquaintances have given up on this aircraft.

Mirage or Malibu; Lycoming or Continental…piston engines being asked to do too much… at best, cracked cylinders, burned-up turbochargers, short time to overhaul… at worst, complete power failure aloft with friends and family on board, dead stick landing after instrument descent, broken airplane in a field. In a testament to the pilot's skill - nobody hurt.

Black Tulip

gadfly said...

Here’s an “aside” for anyone interested:

Fall seems to have arrived a bit early here in the Albuquerque area this year. Leaves began to turn color a week ago at the higher altitudes (7,100 feet by our house). Before long . . . maybe sooner than expected, you will be able to ask questions concerning various icing problems right here in the “nest”. ‘Just a hunch, but we may be in for an early winter . . . based on thirty-seven years of observation. If nothing else, tell your “wives”, they can stop wearing white shoes, etc., and go to their winter wardrobe. And for the Eclipse pilots, make sure all de-icing precautions are in place. Oh, and take along a jacket during your flight training . . . you’ll need it when you return to ABQ at the end of the day. When that sun goes down over the western volcanoes, it gets cold almost instantly.

gadfly

Black Tulip said...

Gadfly,

As a near two-year resident of Santa Fe, I'd love to see northern New Mexico this fall.

Enjoy, and take the back road via Cerrillos and Madrid and then the High Road through Las Trampas to Taos.

I've got my jacket.

Black Tulip

gadfly said...

BT

Interesting thing this state of New Mexico, you can go "south" to places like Reserve, and because of the high altitude, enjoy similar scenery as Cerillos, Madrid, Golden, Santa Fe, Taos, etc., and the location of our "maybe" new home just east of Golden on 344, a few feet east of "Heart Break Hill".

And to the pilots, this is not anything like Arizona . . . the lowest point is just under 3,000 feet altitude, down in the South-Western most corner, next to Arizona. There are many rocks in clouds above ten to twelve thousand feet . . . so avoid big puffy white things.

For a "real airplane", it is an ideal location.

gadfly

(Now, to design an engine that will run on "Hatch" green chili.)

Gunner said...

Is Santa Fe still part of New Mexico? I'd have thought it'd been annexed south by Sedona by now....with the blessings of Free New Mexicans.

I have a soft spot for Albuquerque, having travelled thru and stayed on often. I once spent the better part of a week in Santa Fe, camped out in a motel, hunting the most irascibly lovable Aussie Shep the world has ever known.

Food was great and I got that errant pup back once he'd finished with his "business" in town. But I sniffed a liberal breeze, reminiscent of the decline of otherwise world class destinations like Lake Havasu, Missoula and, yes, Sedona.

I guess you can't stop "progress". I suspect Vern counts on that. ;-)

Gunner

gadfly said...

Gunner

Thou temptest me greatly to make comment . . . but since it's generally quiet at the moment, me thinks I'll call it quits for the night, and get some sleep.

'Later,

gadfly

Shane Price said...

Ken,

I love the idea of DayJet over here, as a means of selling more E499.5's. Between European rail networks (something you guys have real understanding of...) going city centre to city centre at 200 to 300Kmph and Ryainair doing all the 'out of the way' low cost airports, where will DayJet do any business? Even if there was a market for point to point mid distance air services, an E499.5 would be a very unlikely choice. Remember what the proposed service has to compete with, to move business travel (and the required Euros) from established modes of transport:-

1. High speed, regular (hourly) intercity rail services which offer quality food, space to work and move around in and unlimited baggage capacity. Oh, and you can use your mobile phone the entire time. I have started phone calls in Dusseldorf and finished them in Essen. Many times....

2. Very low cost airline travel in a region stuffed with local governments keen to promote 'their airport' and with the ability to provide state funding for shorter range public transport to support said airport. And you can use your mobile phone most of the time.

3. A high speed (130Kmph average) motorway network that makes your Interstate system look like something from the Dark Ages. Did I mention the mobile phone?

DayJet Europe?

A joke. The only region it might work in is what we call New Europe, what you guys would refer to as the Evil Empire. Trouble is that a few very clever Russians have 'cornered' all the money and, as a result, the rest of the population is so poor its moving to Ireland for work...

OK, maybe not the entire population, but enough to convince me that there must be a distinct shortage of money there, if doctors from the Ukraine drive taxi's in Dublin for a living.

Dream on Ken. If you think that this 'idea' will get you something for your progress payment, you are in for a rude shock.

Shane

Black Tulip said...

Gunner said of Santa Fe,

“…I sniffed a liberal breeze, reminiscent of the decline of otherwise world class destinations…”

How true. What other city has an iridologist who can diagnose your medical state by staring at your eye. Or where spring cleaning means herbal colonic therapy.

Black Tulip

mouse said...

AirTaxiMan,

Wonder where the "other" ships power battery will be installed, and at what weight penalty for the EuroClips?

Just going from :30 minute to 1:00 hour reserve is significant for the all electric EA-500.

mouse said...

Black Tulip,

the ACSEP audit is an inpsction/verification visit, however a surprise it is not. In fact very rarely does the FAA make a "surprise" visit to anyone unless it is the result of a formal complaint and verification. They make appointments and give you plenty of time to prepare for the,

I prefer the old frop in anytime you want visit, because only this wiil keep management from over-running the people who really know what is going on at Eclipse.

flyforfun said...

Had dinner last night with a guy who just bought a mustang from Cessna for one of his customers. It was a demo and went for 2.95MM. Thats 225K over new.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gunner said...

My predictions to 9Z's predictions:

Unless Eclipse CAN produce 200 fully functioning jets (minimum) in 2008, it will be sold or in Chapter 11.

This company has bet on "big". Big Splash, Big Market, Big Claims, Big Ego, Big Budget. This last has to be covered.
Gunner

ps: All this, of course, ASSumes they will survive the next funding round and live to see 2008.

WhyTech said...

9Z said:

"My predictions for 2008-2009:"

Agree with all of yours and will add some of mine:

6. By the end of 2009, Vern will have "resigned to pursue other opportunities,"

7. By the end of 2009, a new management team consisting mostly of aviation pros will be on board or on their way in,

8. By the end of 2008, Avio NG will not be substantially complete,

9. By the end of 2009, production rates will not have reached or exceeded one per day measured over 2009.

WT

EclipseOwner387 said...

Stan said,

"BTW, some time when the blog is quiet, remind me, and I will share the story of one particular new owner from S. Africa. "

Stan Blankenship said...

EO387,

The individual was Dr. Otto Thaning (feel free to google him).

He was/is a heart surgeon who was on the team with Dr. Christian Bernard when they performed the world's first heart transplant in S. Africa.

But that is not where he made his money to purchase a Learjet.

Diamonds were often found along the shore in S. Africa. Conventional wisdom said that they were being washed up off the seabed floor. Dr. Thaning and his father believed differently.

It was their thought that perhaps the diamonds were being washed down to the sea by rivers and then washed back up on shore.

Before a person can go and explore for diamonds in S. Africa, it literally takes an Act of Congress to get approval which he and his father was able to get.

By then they had done their research and knew what they were looking for, he described it as a bologna sandwich. Two layers of rocks of a type and age, and in between some other material of which I have forgotten.

So they started going up and down the rivers until the found the rocks they were looking for (no diamonds yet, mind you), and filed a mining claim.

They set up an operation that sounded a lot like a gold panning sluice and sure enough, they found diamonds and made a lot of money.

Dr. Thaning was/is a pilot and a real aviation enthusiast. He would drive 50-100 miles just to see a Learjet takeoff or land and when he had enough money bought a Learjet Model 25B (as I recall).

When the airplane was ready for delivery, he flew to Wichita on the airlines. He arrived around 7 pm and I picked him up at the terminal and we took the 5 minute drive to the factory. I drove through the security gate and right to the hangar door.

His airplane was the only one in the delivery hangar, it gleamed in the bright lights. He walked around the airplane twice nearly speechless, the cabin door was open and he took a seat in the cabin inhaling that scent of new leather then worked his lanky frame into the left seat.

He said tell me about everything. So we went through every instrument, every control.

The guy had very little to say. I don't know what was going through his mind but you could tell, seeing his airplane was a very moving and emotional experience for him.

The ironic thing is, I don't know who felt the biggest thrill, him or me.

Gunner said...

Stan-
But, but...it wasn't AvioNG equipped!

Great story. Few of us will ever experience that kind of ownership joy.
Gunner

EclipseOwner387 said...

Stan,

Your 2 questions concerning CG and empty weight / non-dosclosures has been answered on the e5c enthusiasts section.


PS-

I agree. Great story. Thanks for sharing.

Gunner said...

EO-
Don't hold us in suspense. Some of us are not willing to provide that much personal info to a company just to join a discussion site; especially when there's no Privacy Policy listed on the site as is customary.

Don't wish to get into a debate about internet privacy and standard Privacy Policies. It's Eclipse's Forum; they can set whatever rules they wish.

Could you just post the answer here?
Gunner

EA50 said...

You're opposed to providing your first name, last name, address, phone number and email address? Then I guess you're out of luck.

I think the Eclipse 500 Owners Club wants to try to avoid the kind of snipe and hide that seems to go on at this blog. You're free to use a screen name and other members will not know who you are, but you are not free to join without telling the webmasters who you are.

Those who feel they can only contribute while hiding their identity must seek their answers elsewhere.

Stan Blankenship said...

Here's what the readers of the blog are missing out on over at the E 500 Owners Club:

Questions from a critic (well the critic.)
Dennis Crum
Total Posts: 25
Joined 2007-05-24

Not sure if anyone wants to tackle this but here are a couple questions from Stan B. Thought it might get the enthusiasts section going.

OK, here are some questions to start with:

1. What is the actual weight and CG location of a 500 with the aero-mods?

2. What non-disclosure agreements are new owners, new pilots and mechanics required or requested to sign before taking delivery of the new airplanes?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Lebel
Total Posts: 205
Joined 2007-05-17

My plane came in at 3683lbs, arm 208.46. That is slightly less than the current “Build a plane” weight for my option set, but Eclipse declined to tell me (I asked, but I did not press) what changes I could expect when everything is installed and functional. My options: LX, Skywatch, part 135, copilot, TWAS-B.

The two non-disclosures I was asked to sign (and did, after discussion) related to data gathered from the engines. The discussion led to the conclusion that AVIVA (who will be managing my plane) also signed the agreement so that I can share the data with them. Of course the existing purchase contract has a global non-disclosure for items marked Eclipse confidential.

-Ron

P.S. Speak for yourself Stan! No reason you can’t come on as an enthusiast, is there? You certainly have more emotion than a lot of us!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Meyer
Total Posts: 88
Joined 2007-05-24

But do we know with certainty the empty weight of an Eclipse 500 with no optional equipment installed? I think that’s what is really being asked about here--did the plane wind up 3629 lbs empty (without optional equipment) as advertised so that the full 2400 lbs of useful load is theoretically available to buyers who order no optional equipment?

Ron, your numbers help--we know from your answer that the empty weight can’t be a lot more than 3629 lbs--but your plane’s empty weight doesn’t actually settle the question with authority because it is not crystal what optional equipment is included in the 3683 lbs that your plane weighs, right? You know what optional equipment you ordered, and what it is supposed to weigh when all is said and done, but if I’m hearing you right, you’re not sure right now how many pounds of that stuff may still be sitting on the ground somewhere not yet installed.

Ken

Gunner said...

EA50,
What part of "It's Eclipse's Forum; they can set whatever rules they wish" did you fail to understand?

What part of "there's no Privacy Policy listed on the site as is customary" did you fail to read?

Looks like we're not "out of luck" after all. Thanks much, Stan.
Gunner

airtaximan said...

funny, Ken wasn't rude to the guy, and didn't freak out at him that he didn't answer the question to Ken's satisfaction - didn't accuse him of exaggerating the weight...didn't even seem one bit paranoid...on THAT site. He was polite.

Stan, perhaps not a bad way to get some answers... seems like the die-hards are alot more comfortable dealing with their own when trying to figure out what is going on over there!

Empty weight, you say? NO OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!

Gunner said...

AT-
I thought Ken's response was a careful and measured way to say to Ron:

"So, you don't really know what the empty weight is, do you? You have no proof, do you?"

I guess that would be true. What's interesting to me is the questions Ron DIDN'T get answers to from Eclipse. He's taken delivery of a certified aircraft and has no idea what the final W&B is going to be, at least according to Ken's response. Kinda strange, with AvioNG ready for cut in next month and all.

Then there's the non-disclosure agreements. But, their only limited to "data gathered from the engines".

?????

Gunner

airtaximan said...

Gunner,

Ken's really a polite and patient fellow, at heart I guess!

The NDA for engine data? A little strange, but I guess a way to keep engine maintenance under your control?

Anyone seen the warantee on this plane? Do you void the warantee is someone touches the engines or the plane other than e-clips or PW?

Anyhow, the idea that you take delivery of a plane and you do not know the final weight is, a little crazy - but then again, so is givimg e-clips a deposit and progress payment.

The have a lot of "position-holders"... not a good position to be in, either - take it or lose it.

Stan Blankenship said...

While I have not had a chance to run any numbers, here are the moment arms from a pre-aero mod AFM.

A normal 5 seat loading uses seats 1,2,3,4 and 6.

Arms as follows:

Seats 1 & 2 120.37 FWD/124.37 AFT

Seat 3 166.03

Seat 4 157.03

Seat 6 189.03

Baggage 217.92

Fuel:

1,516# 307,772
1,500# 304,563
1,400# 284,673
1,300# 264,553
1,200# 244,295
1,100# 223,932
1,000# 203,477
900# 182,942
800# 162,332
700# 141,657
600# 120,948
500# 100,774
400# 79,735
300# 59,353
200# 39,133
100# 19,176

According to the newly revised FAA Type Certified Data Sheet, maximum fuel capacity for the post aero-mod version is 1,700# which should provide a moment close to 345,071.

The CG envelope for both versions is on the TCDS.

As reported in the Eclipse 500 owners forum one pre aero-mod airplane went out at 3,683# @ Sta 208.46. And by the time the airplane gets the aero-mod update and equipment for FIKI, the weight will be 3,700# or more.

Interesting, the very first post on this blog predicted an empty weight of 3,700#.

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"Ken's really a polite and patient fellow, at heart I guess!"

Ken has little patience for guys like you so regularly employ nasty ad hominem attacks that the moderator has to delete your messages.

Ken constrains himself from saying what he would really like to say to you because Ken is an honorable person.

If you would like polite conversation, you have only to give up writing nastygrams.

Ken

airtaximan said...

stan:

With an "all electric" plane, and the integrated-ness of the aviong system, any issues with the power supplies?

FIKI will require more power...

More importantly, power from a GPU can be "inconcsistent".. some call it "dirty".

How much real life testing and provision do you think there has been for this?

redtail said...

Dick H said... What part of "It's Eclipse's Forum; they can set whatever rules they wish" did you fail to understand? What part of "there's no Privacy Policy listed on the site as is customary" did you fail to read?

I guess I could understand. With all your legal problems, you wouldn't want your personal information like name and email address to leak out.

airtaximan said...

... and all the others too

I think its more about your personal fear than anything I've written about you.

You happen to be impolite on this blog, and you write anything without standing behind it.

I guess you call that honorable.

Here, we call it BS.

Ken Meyer said...

Stan wrote,

"As reported in the Eclipse 500 owners forum one pre aero-mod airplane went out at 3,683# @ Sta 208.46. And by the time the airplane gets the aero-mod update and equipment for FIKI, the weight will be 3,700# or more."

Actually, that's wrong Stan.

The aircraft at 3683 lbs is an aeromod-equipped plane. It is supposed to weight 3629 pounds plus options, and the owner reported that the actual weight came in less than what the empty weight plus options adds up to.

I was pointing out to him that it isn't crystal clear that all the options are installed yet. Also, it isn't crystal clear that every option at this point is either "installed" or "not installed"--I believe some of the options are partly installed.

I think you were wrong about the FIKI, also. The company says that all the equipment for FIKI is onboard already (and operational, by the way--legally, it must be deactivated, but only because FIKI is still pending, not because it doesn't work).

If that owner's plane winds up weighing 3700 lbs and he ordered 100 lbs of options, then the actual empty weight of an Eclipse would be less than the 3629 lbs the company promised, not more.

We don't know (yet) the exact empty weight of a zero-option aircraft for the reasons I cited, but we now know that the plane is coming in awfully close to the 3629 lbs the company said it would.

Ken

airtaximan said...

We don't know (yet) the exact empty weight of a zero-option aircraft

Ken: why?

WhyTech said...

Stan said:

"Interesting, the very first post on this blog predicted an empty weight of 3,700#."

So let me see if I have this right: payload with full fuel in an aeromoded airplane is 3 FAA standard folks (one of whom is the pilot) plus some baggage? So if you are carrying anything besides travel baggage, its a two place aircraft? Am I missing something?

WT

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"FIKI will require more power..."

Nope; that's not right.

I get the feeling you're thinking they finished the plane and are now just turning the effort toward developing all the anti-icing and de-icing equipment. But that's just wrong.

The planes are being delivered with boots and all the equipment to cycle the boots. The hot windshield and its associated equipment is in place. The engine anti-ice is in place (and is in routine use already).

What's missing is approval for flight into known icing. But they've done a fair amount of that already--the ice form testing for instance. They still need to finish the testing, particularly the natural icing tests.

The idea that the icing system is only now being cobbled together is way off base.

Ken

airtaximan said...

Ken:

About a month or two ago, you were incensed that I wrote that you would not acknowledge any risks associated with e-clips. So, I politel asked you to list them.

To date, you have continued to avoid backing up your statement, so I'll ask again, politely.

Please Ken, be a stand up guy, and list the risks as you see them, regarding the eclips plane and the company.

Thanking you in advance for your kind consideration.

Atman

Ken Meyer said...

WT wrote,

"So let me see if I have this right: payload with full fuel in an aeromoded airplane is 3 FAA standard folks (one of whom is the pilot) plus some baggage?"

Full-fuel payload spec for an Eclipse 500 with zero options is 714 lbs.

It's well-known that if you want to carry more than that to maximum range, you need a different airplane. No surprise there.

The typical air taxi flight for the airplane is about 500 nm, and at that range, the payload is something over 1100 lbs with NBAA reserves.

Ken

airtaximan said...

Ken, I'm certain everything you wrote was accurate, but it does not relate to my question. I am impressed though, that you could imagine they are "cobbling together" the system.

My question related to the power, and it was directed to Stan.

Perhaps you should ask yourself some questions... like why is FIKI not certified after 10 years and $1.X billion? Is it incompetance? Lack of ice is BS...so move along...

Also, would you consider Aviong "a system being cobbled together after the fact?" - some might. So, your judgement is right on regarding FIKI.

I hear they fired the boots supplier. Am I wrong?

PErhaps FIKI goes on your list of risks, KEN?

Read what Stan and GAd write regarding the electrical systems, and the drain... as well "dirty" power on the ground.

Gotta run - your a great guy Ken - Thanks!

airtaximan said...

one more thing -

"The typical air taxi flight for the airplane is about 500 nm"

Why?
How do you know this?

Thanks....

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"About a month or two ago, you were incensed that I wrote that you would not acknowledge any risks"

Nothing you write "incenses" me, AT. But I was indeed dissatisfied (almost angry really) that you chose to purposely misconstrue (lie about) what I wrote earlier.

Regrettably, your request for additional information must be denied.

Ken

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"Full-fuel payload spec for an Eclipse 500 with zero options is 714 lbs. "

Ken,

And how may of these (zero options) will be sold? I predict exactly none.


Here's where my question originated:

3700 lbs = empty weight with mods/options/ AvioNG etc

1700 lbs full fuel

5400 total

5995 max weight

595 payload

Where did I go wrong?

WT

Stan Blankenship said...

Ken,

Did you forget to add the 30 lbs they are predicting for Avio NG?

And when my 3,700 lb prediction was made, the company was still predicting 3,536 lbs.

Ken Meyer said...

"The typical air taxi flight for the airplane is about 500 nm, and at that range, the payload is something over 1100 lbs with NBAA reserves."

Actually, that's not quite right either.

You can carry over 1250 lbs in the Eclipse and achieve an NBAA IFR 100-nm alternate range of 500 nm.

You can carry 1150 lbs in the Eclipse and achieve an NBAA IFR range of 600 nm.

At max-range settings, the airplane trades about 1 nm for each additional pound of payload you wish to carry.

Ken

Gunner said...

Oh, cool, now lets talk about all the benefits of this Revolutionary Aircraft in the 500nm configuration.

This gets more absurd by the week.

Gunner

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"You can carry 1150 lbs in the Eclipse and achieve an NBAA IFR range of 600 nm."

Ken,

One "issue" with the E-clips is fuel load vs burn at various altitudes, as other have pointed out here. To get the range, you have to get right up to FL350 or higher. The fuel load can be thought of as buying distance (up high) or time (down low). If you fly a 600 mile trip with the fuel load 1150 lbs of payload allows, you dont have a lot of "time" left down low if the stuff hits the fan. I admit to being conservative, but given these characteristics of the airplane, I can make a case for never leaving the ground wihout the tanks full. It gets back to the notion of margin of safety discused here some weeks ago. I know that you are less conservative than I am, so YMMV.

WT

Ken Meyer said...

WT wrote,

"Where did I go wrong?"

You forgot about ramp weight.

The plane's max ramp weight is 6029 lbs. Empty weight (by spec) is 3629 lbs. Fuel load (spec) is 1686 lbs. So the useful load is:

6029 - 3629= 2400 lbs

The full-fuel payload is:

2400 - 1686 = 714 lbs.

The one fly in the ointment is that they managed to get 1698 lbs of fuel onboard instead of the 1686 they originally promised (and upon which the range figures are based). So the full-fuel payload actually turns out to be 702 lbs if you top the tanks to the new max.

But you're absolutely right that a guy who buys 100 lbs of options gets a full-fuel payload of about 600 lbs. That's a pretty well-equipped plane.

As I alluded to earlier, charter operators will probably not be wanting to use this plane for max-range flights. Maybe if they're running a single pilot operation and only have 2 passengers it would work, but basically operators like DayJet need to be flying ranges well under 1000 nm (and of course DayJet has already made it crystal clear that their expected range is under 600 nm).

As an owner/operator, 600 lbs full-fuel payload suits my needs just fine. The CJ has a full-fuel payload about 250 lbs higher than the Eclipse despite a gross weight nearly twice as higher; it's the way many of these jets work. There are some jets with a full-fuel payload lower than the Eclipse. Why? Because it provides the operator the option of trading payload for miles if they want.

Any idea what the full-fuel payload of a 2001 Meridian is? It's barely enough to carry the pilot :)

Ken

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"But you're absolutely right that a guy who buys 100 lbs of options gets a full-fuel payload of about 600 lbs. That's a pretty well-equipped plane."

Agree that it is well equipped. I would guess that the owner/pilots, who are buying their "dream airplane" would be close to the max, while the commercial operators will buy "stripper" airplanes.

And Ken said:

"Any idea what the full-fuel payload of a 2001 Meridian is? It's barely enough to carry the pilot :) "

One of the many reasons that Meridian never even made my short list when considering a turbine acft.

WT

Ken Meyer said...

Full-fuel payload is illusory in many planes.

Take a brand new CJ3, for instance. It has a gross weight over 14,000 lbs but can only manage a full-fuel payload of just 870 lbs (the 2 pilots are included in the basic operating weight so they are excluded from the payload).

How on earth does one use the 6 to 8 passenger seats in a CJ3 while carrying no more than 870 lbs?? Fill it with kids, I guess.

Full-fuel payload constraints are very typical in the jet world. Heck, it's typical in the piston world too. My 340 has 6 seats, but the full-fuel payload is less than the Eclipse.

Ken

Black Tulip said...

The most interesting development over the weekend has been the release of an owner-developed Excel spreadsheet detailing Eclipse 500 performance. On the Eclipse 500 Club website you will see that ‘Bob’ has used ‘Ron’s’ flight manual to produce a very detailed tool for analyzing the performance of the aircraft:

Eclipse 500 Performance Spreadsheet

This apparently models an ‘aeromod’ aircraft as it uses the higher takeoff weight. If you examine the ‘Climb+20’ tab you will see that the aircraft has significant range/payload limitations on a hot day. You can also peruse the Reserve Fuel notes on the main page and compare the assumptions with your own practices.

‘Bob’ did a great deal of work in developing this excellent tool for the Eclipse 500. I hope we will see an aircraft model soon for Jeppesen FlightStar.

Black Tulip

Ken Meyer said...

"One "issue" with the E-clips is fuel load vs burn at various altitudes, as other have pointed out here. To get the range, you have to get right up to FL350 or higher."

But now you're discussing the benefits of turboprop aircraft vs jets. I can see how that would be appropriate to your situation (since you own a turboprop and presumably would like to convince yourself that you are best served with what you already own).

But nothing of what you wrote is at all unique to the Eclipse. It's a function of all jets that efficiency is better at higher altitudes, right?

Ken

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"Take a brand new CJ3, for instance. It has a gross weight over 14,000 lbs but can only manage a full-fuel payload of just 870 lbs (the 2 pilots are included in the basic operating weight so they are excluded from the payload)."

The CJ3 carries so much fuel that it can go 1900 nm carrying 4 pax plus pilots plus some baggage. Admittedly you cant fill the tanks and fill the seats, but you do get a relatively huge range of loading/fuel flexibility. And you should, because you are pay four or more times the price of the E-clips.

WT

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

" convince yourself that you are best served with what you already own)."

I would be best served by a BBJ and will purchase one as soon as I can afford it!

WT

Gunner said...

"Good Morning, it's a GREAT day at DayJet. How may I help you?"

"Oh, Good Morning, Mr. Vansneusen. What can I do for you today?"

"Key West to Tallahassee tomorrow at 10AM? Let me check Astro. Yes, we can arrange that, no problem. You're pickup will be between 8:47 and 11:03 with no more than two passenger pickups along the way. Would that be acceptable?"

"Great then, I'll just book you for.....what's that? You want to take two of your partners with you? No problem, but you'll have to charter the entire aircraft, you know? Ok, great. Now, just how much do your partners weigh?"

"Average weight, I see. Well, Astro is expecting numeric values, not "average". Exactly how much do your partners weigh; and has your weight changed since your last weigh in? It's OK, I'll wait while you ask."

"Oh, I see. Oh, my, they are hefty aren't they? Glad I asked. We consider "average" to be Gary Coleman. My heavens, it looks like you need to lay off the bratwurst, young man, tee-hee-hee."

"Yes, yes sir. It was just a joke, yes. Hold for me one minute while I punch some keys, OK?"

"Hi, Mr. Vansneusen, I'm back and you're all set. The first plane will pick two of you up between 7:49 and 11:57. The second will arrive for the third passenger between between 8:03 and 11:33. How will that be?"

"No, sir, you will have to pay for two planes. After all, you'll be USING two planes, you silly-willy."

"Well, Mr. Vansneusen, Talahassee is very long way from Key West, you know. This isn't the Boca-Gainseville run, after all."

"No, sir, we don't have any larger planes. They don't suit our business plan."

"Hello? Hello? Mr. Vansneusen, are you there?"

Gunner

gadfly said...

Something that may be commonly overlooked is the weight of the paint, and the “pros” and “cons” of using paint on aircraft. A search finally came up with the following website, that explains in detail the careful painting of the Cessna “Mustang”:

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/050701.html

Using the numbers from the Cessna website, various primer and base coats, .003” thick after careful and final sanding operations, plus a final overcoat of .0025”, using a high-solids polyurethane paint developed by Cessna and Dupont, a very conservative estimate comes to a final weight of 34 pounds per thousand square feet of surface (based on the cured weight of polyurethane paint, without filler). With filler, the weight would easily exceed 40 to 45 pounds per thousand square feet. A rough estimate of the overall surface area of the Eclipse seems to be about 1,300 square feet (wings, fuselage, “tail feathers”, engine cowling, etc.), so the little bird would be carrying somewhere between fifty to seventy pounds of paint . . . provided it matched or exceeded the quality found on the Cessna. From the earlier pictures, that doesn’t seem possible, but “maybe”. . .

In any case, it might be interesting to consider the weight-saving of a bare metal version of the little bird. Of course, the paint serves many purposes . . . a major reason for the paint is to hide surface defects. A drawback is the “entrapment” of various elements that over time contribute to corrosion just under the surface (anyone one of us who has done body work on a car knows first hand the rust that often grows out from pinholes just under the paint, allowing the metal to fail, before it is detected).

Someone recently complained about the lack of technical discussion . . . so here’s an extremely important item that seems to have received only passing interest in past blogs.

gadfly

(My numbers are based on .0055” of final thickness, a specific gravity of “cured” unfilled polyurethane of 1.2, low numbers for the “filler”, low overall estimate of surface area from the drawings and dimensions on the Eclipse webpage, and assuming the highest quality of paint application. If my numbers are incorrect, then please provide more accurate numbers . . . but be forwarned: You may be greatly surprised at how high the “real” numbers will grow.)

airtaximan said...

Ken,

You took exception to my comment, contained within a long post, that you never acknowledge the risks...

And, I think it would be appropriate that since you were unhappy about my comment, despite over a years woth of "denial" regarding the risks, you had the chance to tell us the risks you see regarding the plane and the program.

Why not just enlighten us, Ken. I guess you can't...won't or just made another frivolous remark, to be contrarian with a critic.

Your last post was pretty nasty and acusatory for someone who a few minutes ago said the problem was that I was impolite.

Hmm... I think the record shows:

- you will not explain your statements, becasue they are shallow, and like e-clips, cannot be explained reasonably and rationaly - they sound OK, until someone asks a question - then, silence, or a nasty remark.

- you are discourteous to anyone who attempts to shed light on issues that are REAL, becasue you do not like this

- you are defensive to the point of some psycological condition, and it hurts you to admit someone else might actually be right

- you have offered to "wager" you were so sure of yourself, and given the opportunity, you go limp

- you have been flat out wrong regarding many of your FACTS or opinions. This has been proven as time goes by and the story comes out.

- you make claims regarding yourself, like you are seriously considering buying your wife a Mustang to go with yur e-clips, which makes is frankly, unbelievable, considering you claim e-clips is not for the rich... 2 jet planes, Ken - if true, is pretty rich... actually, you'd have about $4.5 million worth of jets in your garage. I think you just wrote this for effect.

...so K- all of your posts are nothing but a billboard for e-clips. Everyone can find your opinion on the e-clips website...all your facts are contained there. I guess your puffing about buying 2 jets, and trying to appear as an impartial person bolsters E-clips? Why not just post links? Its less dishonest.

** not for me, but for you, Ken, you should not go silent when someone asks a question of you, or asks you to provide some explanation of what you are stating as FACT or Gospel. It just doesn't feel right. It appears as if you have no answer. I suspect it is getting tougher on you, Ken.

*** There are 46 e-clips planes listings on Controller - indicative, not definative - but 46 is the record, so far. Folks are selling...their planes and their positions.

I suspect you are as jittery as ever, given the reports of financial difficulty, factory turmoil and the fact that plane 71 just STARTED production... all add up to the "risk" associated with you getting nothing for your deposit and progress-payment... but that doesn't make me rude, or a bad guy, Ken. It just makes you scared, more and more desperate and it shows.

... I can almost smell the final post...

Ken: "but it WAS a great plane, it really WAS..."

airtaximan said...

Gad,

Ever consider the paint might be structural on this plane....

;)

WhyTech said...

Gadfly said:

"You may be greatly surprised at how high the “real” numbers will grow.) "

Gad,

50 lbs plus/minus is the weight of paint on a "typical" GA acft according to a number of independent souces I have talked to over the years. Airplane paint jobs are getting more exotic as of late, with "high solids" paints and many coats of clear for that "depth" look, so 50 lbs maybe conservative today - in any event its too much to ignore.

WT

airtaximan said...

gunner,

don't laugh... you are not far of the mark!

Hysterical - becasue I don't fly Dayjet, I don't invest in Dayjet and so, it's funny.

By the way, had the customer agreed, the price would have been 2x a Kingair, and taken twice as long, too... origin-destination time, that is...from when you want to leave, and without stops.

nice one.

gadfly said...

Taximan

When it was decided to strip and repaint the "funnels" on the Queen Mary, they found that those massive steel tubes were, indeed, supported by nothing much more than countless layers of paint. Imagine what would have happened, had it left Long Beach and put to sea.

gadfly

("Better living . . . er, flying, through chemistry by Dupont")

EclipseOwner387 said...

Well it looks like we got some discussions flying. Ken thanks for correcting Stans errors in his original assumptions. I also agree that the range and payload mix work great for my typical missions. Roughly 600NM or less is typical for me and usually VFR destinations. Occaisional 800NM trip. The Eclipse has more range and payload of any airplane I have ever owned. Not to mention it is considerably faster.

jetaburner said...

EO387-

Just put in the GMX200 into my TBM and I love it. Great upgrade and good decision to keep the onboard radar. Invaluable for embedded t-storms.

jetaburner said...

WT-

I've noticed more competition in the insurance market with lower rates for the TBM and CJ2.

EclipseOwner387 said...

JetABurner,

Does the spreadsheet give you the info you needed for fuel in climb and such? I haven't looked at it in detail but it looks pretty nice.

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"There are 46 e-clips planes listings on Controller - indicative, not definative - but 46 is the record, so far. Folks are selling...their planes and their positions."

You specialize in writing inaccurate statements, don't you?

There are NOT 46 Eclipse aircraft for sale on Controller. You're wrong. Take another look.

At least 17 of those positions are either sold already or are sales of fractional shares in positions somebody wants to keep. Others are stale listings.

...Just trying to keep your diatribe a little closer to the truth, AT.

Ken

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

What is the range in your airplane with all seats occupied with 170 lb pax. Just curious.

EO


PS -

I hope everyone had a great holiday weekend!!!

Gunner said...

EO-
Just about the same as the Eclipse, I'd imagine.

Your turn:
Have we now come to comparing this Revolutionary Aircraft to a 17 year old piston twin Dinosaur? If so, then let's admit what it is and stop pretending it's something it's not.

You'll get no argument from me, I assure you.

Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

gunner wrote,

"Just about the same as the Eclipse, I'd imagine."

You do not know the range of your aircraft with the seats filled?

OK.

Ken

Gunner said...

Yes I most certainly do, Ken. To the second decimal place.

It's about the same as the EA-50X. ;-)
Gunner

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gunner said...

9Z-
Don't forget the Baron.

It's a great value proposition for the AirTaxi market. Well, it must be, because it's quickly becoming the NEW standard against which The Faithful measure the EA-50X's performance.

;-)
Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

gunner wrote,

"It's about the same as the EA-50X. ;-)"

And what is the range of the Eclipse with the seats filled, Rich?

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

"That leaves one VLJ to choose from: Mustang."

Well that's an interesting point of view. One might label it the "naysayer's view." There are, in fact, right this minute, twice as many Eclipse aircraft being enjoyed by their buyers as there are Mustangs. To ignore that simple fact is rather telling IMHO.

While we're on the subject of full-fuel payload--do you happen to know how much higher the full-fuel payload of the "only" VLJ is compared to the Eclipse?

OK, I'll tell you. Mustang's full-fuel payload is just 84 pounds more that of the Eclipse. Let's see, that comes out to about $15,470 per extra pound!

Ken

Gunner said...

Ken-
Why should I answer any of your questions when you answer virtually none? Because that's the kinda guy I am.

Ken asked:
"And what is the range of the Eclipse with the seats filled"

Unlike you, I can only calculate the Eclipse to ONE decimal point. Gimme a second here.
.
.
.
.
.
OK, got it. It's just about the same as my 17 year old twin piston Dinosaur.

Both of which are completely adequate for AirTaxi, doncha think?

Problem with you, Ken, is you're not a street fighter. You regularly mistake kindness for weakness. Now, you wanna press the exploration and have me really embarrass you? Take your best shot.
Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

Gunner said something about a street fight ?

Beats me why anyone would equate a discussion about airplane range to a street fight.

This is exactly why we pushed to open the owner's forum to people with legitimate questions--so people seeking information wouldn't have to suffer folks trying to couch things as some kind of "street fight."

I really can't deal with that kind of malarkey Rich.

Anybody who wants to have a serious discussion about the range of the plane or other legitimate topics can post their comments and questions at http://www.eclipse500club.org/discussions/. Owners will be glad to answer your questions.

Ken

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

My 1985 Malibu can fly for 7 hours if you use LOP techniques (bring piddle packs or use that famous relief tube.) But you are still at 1200 or less miles of real range. To put in perspective, I will accept the similar useful load and range of a dinosaur if it is new, shiny and FASTER. I think all the efforts Eclipse has made to keep the cost low is great. Dinosaur twin pistons are CRAZY expensive to maintain. Thats why they are so CHEAP on the used market. I don't shy away from a piston twin. I RUN AS FAST AS I CAN.

Also, I am so non-piston now that I FIRMLY believe every Malibu/Mirage should be converted. I really believe that. It is easier to fly and the confidence level it gives is off the charts.

Turbine twins seem pretty cool though. That is the true competitor to twin Jets. Single turbines are too controversial for many pax. Educatuion could maybe change that but I doubt it. Flying with one engine requires a level of understanding from the novice that is hard to overcome - my experience.


Bottomline, I doubt your piston twin has the same NBAA range as the Eclipse with payload considerations. BUT even if it did, you would take longer to get there. And that is the rub.

Sweet dreams! I am off to bed. Going to take the family to Cedar Point tomorrow. Gotta love Private Aviation. We will play for the day and still be back in bed for school tomorrow.

Gunner said...

Ken-
I didn't start this. You did....and rather nastily, I might offer. First to fight, first to the pavement. Like I said, you're not a street fighter, kid. Back to the E5C with you.

EO-
I think where you were going was to question what has caused my 180 degree turn on the Eclipse payload between July '06 and today. I'm certain that's the question you were trying to get to and I wish you'd asked it. So lemme answer, FWIW.

The range of my Baron, seats full, easily exceeds the range of the Eclipse, seats full. Because I pulled seats 5 and 6 out of both my Barons. Even with those seats back in and filled, I'll still probably match the EA-50X. I've only thumb-nailed it, because I don't fly a six seater.....and because it's an embarrassing exercise...FOR THE EA-50X.

It's for this same reason that the Eclipse made sense for me....same as it made sense you and Ken. I've stated, more than once, what my typical payload is and the PROMISED Eclipse would have served that....just as it would for you and Ken.

But Eclipse is not gonna survive on selling planes to guys like me, you and Ken. We're simply not typical. Between July '06 and today, Eclipse has made AirTaxi the cornerstone of their viability; and I came to realize they NEED to be able to justify thousands of aircraft in order to provide this product to you, me and Ken. I'm sorry, The EA-50X just doesn't wash for thousands of AirTaxi's any more than the Baron.

THAT'S WHY I can laugh at the payload claims today. It was a great idea for a limited market looking for a light use, small twinjet. But that dream has been perverted beyond nightmare.

There's my answer to your inquiry (and Ken's). Now let's all run off to the E5C for the "real skinny". Been there; done that. Nobody is missing much. In July '06, when I really didn't know Vernon Raburn from Vernon Allbright there were a couple of REAL Vern critics over there. They were using words like "lied" and "screwed" in trying to come up with the tough questions for the July 6(?) conference call.

They were, for the most part silenced for not being "constructive". I've not seen such a cult atmosphere since I was in my 20's and got invited to dinner by acquaintances, only to find I was at a home owned and run by the Unification Church. It was a pleasant dinner and visit, but hardly an enjoyably evening. Know what mean?

Perhaps things have changed at (the forum that's become) E5C in a year. I hope so.
Gunner

redtail said...

Ken said... Anybody who wants to have a serious discussion about the range of the plane or other legitimate topics can post their comments and questions at http://www.eclipse500club.org/discussions/. Owners will be glad to answer your questions.

Anybody, that is, besides Dick H. He would have to register and provide his real name and email address. But then what of the courts? Oh, my! I guess that's why he keeps guns handy.

Gunner said...

RT-
Don't ever change. You, more than any of the Vernies give me confidence that, in my own small way, I chink the armor of the Cult of The Eclipse.

As long as you continue, I rest easy in the knowledge that I must have cost you 1 or 3 potential Depositors. Thus, your grade-school snipes will continue to be taken as a sincere compliment.

Off to E5C with you, now. Ken's waiting.

Gunner

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
redtail said...

Dick said... Don't ever change. You, more than any of the Vernies give me confidence that, in my own small way, I chink the armor of the Cult of The Eclipse.

Don't ever leave this blog. As long as you are here, those newcomers lurking will find your sarcasm and attacks of other bloggers boring and decide this blog to be filled with emotional rants that remain unreliable. We've seen it stated from the regulars here as well, but they have nothing better to do, so they stay. Don't pride yourself in turning away depositors. You're not that convincing.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WhyTech said...

EO said:

"Dinosaur twin pistons are CRAZY expensive to maintain. "

and,

"FIRMLY believe every Malibu/Mirage should be converted"

and,

"Flying with one engine requires a level of understanding from the novice that is hard to overcome - my experience. "


BMOB,

Have any experience with a pistion twin? I owned a Baron for 6 years and the only unscheduled maintenance I had was two avionics failues - nothing to do with the "piston twin" aspects of the airplane. If you are talking about an OLD piston twin, maybe, but then any old airplane can be expensive to maintain.

I agree with your statement on converting Malibu/Mirage, but mostly because the piston engine problem/failure record in these acft is so poor. The design just asks too much of the piston engine.


Your data and mine on acceptance of turbine singles differ. The dealer where I bought my PC-12 runs a fractional ownership program using only PC-12's; he currently has a bit more than 30 airplanes in the program and is adding new acft as fast as he can buy them (which turns out not to be fast enough to meet demand). He tells me that most fractional owners in the program are not aviation savvy. No doubt the market is segmented, and there are some pax who are apprehensive about single engine acft, but there is another segment that is OK with this.

Aint it wonderful to have so much experience and insgight on this blog? Lots of folks with different experience to contribute. Cant we all just get along?

WT

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"Dinosaur twin pistons are CRAZY expensive to maintain. "


I should also have said that the annual inspections on my Baron ran about $2800 every year I owned it. The total bill from the shop was sometimes a bit more because I requested work that was not within the scope of the annual inspection, but even with this, the tab never exceeded $5000, including the annual.

FWIW, the annual just completed on my PC-12 was around $8500.

WT

Ken Meyer said...

One nice thing about the Eclipse--annuals are a thing of the past.

The Eclipse Airplane Maintenance Manual has an inspection schedule like this:

First inspection: 24 months or 300 hours, whichever occurs first. Recurrent inspections every 24 months or 300 hours

Inspection: 48 months or 1200 hours

Major Inspection: 10,000 hours

Operators may elect to perform the inspections in a staged manner over multiple maintenance visits if the FAA approves their progressive inspection program.

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

Niner zulu wrote,

"Ken, be serious. A partially-completed Eclipse is still not a real contender in the VLJ market."

I think you overstate the limitations of the current aircraft. One look at Flightaware, and it is apparent these planes are perfectly capable of flying the missions their owners intended for them.

In a pinch, could you get your current airplane from Point A to Point B with the GPS and moving map OTS? Most of the time, the answer is "yes."

I sometimes think we've become a little too cozy with some of the new avionics and need to be more comfortable with our basic navigation skills.

All that said, the lack of GPS and moving map functionality in the Eclipse is a problem that is inherently shortlived. By several accounts, the company is on track to deliver the missing functionality as promised in the very near future; we'll all just have to find something new to complain about :)

Ken

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"One nice thing about the Eclipse--annuals are a thing of the past."

Ken,

Not to be provocative, but my guess would be that the unscheduled maintenence requirements on the E-clips will make this irrelevant.

WT

Ken Meyer said...

Niner zulu wrote,

"Brand X radar, a brand X autopilot, and brand X GPS?"

I missed that stuff the first time around, but it's worth discussing:

Radar--first off, I wouldn't be heartbroken if they omitted it altogether. Having flown simultaneously with all 3 weather aids for years (stormscope, Nexrad and onboard radar), I wouldn't dream of cancelling a flight because of something wrong with the onboard radar. These days, onboard radar is an also-ran--interesting, fun, but no longer essential.

That said, the JRC unit will be just fine, thank you. JRC has been making high-quality electronic stuff forever--take a peek at the Inmarsat equipment on most oceangoing ships and it will say "JRC" on it. So does lots of other stuff including radar equipment.

Autopilot--you have something against Meggit/STEC? I think STEC may be the premiere provider of GA autopilots at this instant in time.

GPS--The manufacturer of the Eclipse GPS sensor is FreeFlight--formerly Trimble. Haven't you heard of them?

I'm a big fan of the functionality Avio NG will provide, and I commend Eclipse for setting out to deliver a product with unprecedented avionics and safety. Those who don't understand what Avio NG offers that other GA planes do not have can take a peek here to learn all about it.

Ken

Black Tulip said...

ECLIPSE PERFORMANCE

Following up on the performance calculation tool posted yesterday:

Eclipse 500 Performance Spreadsheet

If this spreadsheet is accurate, some of the early predictions about the Eclipse 500 seem right on. If finished, the aircraft should carry three adults about 700 to 800nm on a realistic flight.

In round numbers, start with a basic empty weight of 3,600lbs, add 100lbs of options, charts and snacks, add 1700lbs of fuel, and 600lbs of FAA-size people and bags bringing you to 6,000lbs takeoff weight.

In a temperature range of ISA-10 to ISA+10, the spreadsheet says the aircraft will travel 1,100nm at FL410 or FL400. On a hot day at ISA+20 the range drops to 950nm. The aircraft apparently can’t get to FL410 until it has burned off 1,000lbs of fuel (out of 1,700).

If the maximum altitude allowed by ATC drops to FL300, then range drops to 800 to 850nm. If the Eclipse is only allowed to climb to FL250, the range falls to 650 to 750nm. All these assume about 400lbs remaining as IFR reserve.

Center of gravity on the Eclipse is an interesting issue. Review of the Type Certification Data Sheets for various aircraft reveals the following ranges at maximum weight:

Beech 58 Baron 7.7in
Cessna 501 Citation ISP 5.9
Cessna 510 Mustang 5.4
Cessna 340 5.2
Cessna 525A CJ1 4.0
Eclipse 500 1.8

In his preflight brief, will the Eclipse pilot have to tell his passengers to keep their hands in their lap and their gum in their mouth?

Black Tulip

airsafetyman said...

So the Eclipse is an overweight, short-ranged, three OCCUPANT aircraft with full fuel. The question then is how far can you realistically go with the full fuel load, considering that the higher altitudes may not be available from ATC, and, according to factory pilots, the pig climbs like a lead duck above the low 30 thousands? Also comparing the payload of the Eclipse WITHOUT pilots to the payload of the CJ3 WITH pilots is really too much!

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"Autopilot--you have something against Meggit/STEC? I think STEC may be the premiere provider of GA autopilots at this instant in time.

GPS--The manufacturer of the Eclipse GPS sensor is FreeFlight--formerly Trimble. Haven't you heard of them?"

Ken,

You are digging yourself a hole with these two. STEC provides a lot of inexpensive autopilots. The premier providers are Collins and Honeywell.

The FreeFlight GPS is considered junk by those in the know. IIRC, the current FF receiver is not certified for Beta 3 capabilities, which means that you likely will not have LNAV/VNAV and LPV approaches available in the E-clips for some time to come. There is also a Service Bulletin out currently on this receiver restricting how it may be used in IFR flight, due to marginal performance.

One big issue for Avio NG, IMHO, is that virtually all the suppliers are third string.

WT

Ken Meyer said...

Whytech wrote,

"The premier providers are Collins and Honeywell."

For multimillion dollar jets. Most everybody in the lower ends of general aviation knows and respects Meggitt/STEC. You're wanting a $1.5 million airplane to have an autopilot priced for for a Lear. Even Cessna couldn't afford to put a Honeywell system in their VLJ offering. It's too expensive for them, and they wound up with a VLJ that costs $1.3 million more than the Eclipse.

I honestly think you really just don't get it. The Eclipse is all about jet performance at value pricing. Anybody can build a quality jet for a real high price. What Eclipse is doing is building a quality jet at a very cost-effective price. Those who want to spend a lot can buy a BBJ or a G550, but lots of people are attracted to the Eclipse idea of providing unprecedented value.

Incidentally, the FreeFlight WAAS issues have been addressed according to Eclipse.

Ken

mouse said...

Ken,

Ramp Weight...? Do you know what this is?

Ramp weight is the max weight you can taxi with, but not get into the air with. You can taxi on the ground at the max ramp weight, but cannot takeoff until burn off all excess fuel weight and are under the max take off weight. (If the max ramp weight is greater than the max take off weight.) So that's why you have to calculate the fuel burn during engine start, ground runs or taxi, so it's safe to take off.

It has nothing to do with useful load. In your case Useful Load is the excess you have in your underwear and the Eclipse website. You have room for a whole lot of crap, however I would debate how "useful" that is...

mouse said...

Ken,

annuals are a thing of the past... Yep, but better get used to a whole lot more money and inspections.

And while you quote some more numbers you better go back and add all that you missed, like service bulletins with hourly callouts for inspections of the transparencies, windshields, and a few other structual areas. And expect plenty more bulletins has the fleet grows and gets inspected and new areas of concern are discovered.

You are truly clueless, and yet you believe everything Vern puts in front of you like it is fact.

I hope someday you do take delivery of an EA-500 and you can than learn the difference between Verns butt and reality.

Cheap, cheap, cheap... your mantra is getting stale. Go to a $1 store and buy anything, then tell me its better, equal to, or the same as anything else.. It's not, it's just cheap and soon to become a worthless waste of money.

You get what you pay for, which is probably why you don't own an Eclipse now, right?

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"For multimillion dollar jets"

You prevoiusly stated for "GA." Multimillion dollar jets are GA. I made no statement re what autopilot E-clips should use. They use STEC because its cheap, and dont use Collins or Honeywell because they are not cheap. Not rocket surgery! Technically, at about $2mm each, an E-clips IS a multimillion dollar jet.

Stop trying to pick a fight with every post. It will do wonders for you.

Ken Meyer said...

Mouse wrote,

"[Ramp weight] has nothing to do with useful load...

Useful Load is the excess you have in your underwear and the Eclipse website. You have room for a whole lot of crap, however I would debate how "useful" that is..."


Be nice.

But if you can't be nice; be right.

FAA-H-8083-1 defines Useful Load as the "Difference between takeoff weight, or ramp weight if applicable, and basic empty weight."

Many (perhaps all) jet manufacturers calculate useful load on the basis of ramp weight rather than MGTOW to account for the fuel burn of startup and taxi.

Ken

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"Incidentally, the FreeFlight WAAS issues have been addressed according to Eclipse."

This is not consistent with my info, but since E-clips says so, it must be right. I concede.

WT

WhyTech said...

E-clips performance:

I made the observation awhile back in this thread that if you fill the tanks in the E-clips, carry 40-50 lbs of luggage (1 brief case and 1 roller bag) per person, and want to carry some baggage beyond personal travel luggage, the E-clips is a 2 place airplane. So far I havent seen any compelling evidence to the contrary. Did I miss this?

(BTW, when I total the weight of the FAA required manuals, charts, emergency equipment, minor tools, etc, etc which I carry in my PC-12 routinely (not including personal travel luggage and "cargo") it totals 191 lbs. Yes, I could get by with less, but not much less than 100 lbs.)

WT

Gunner said...

I wonder if anyone can confirm an email from last night. I'm told that the "Enthusiast Site" on the Eclipse Forum has chalked up exactly ONE discussion thread that has exactly three responses. Topic and responses are all attributed to current Depositors.

If true, this is relevant as it speaks peripherally to Depositors-to-Be interest in Le Petit. As much as the site has been spammed......er....."announced" here and elsewhere, one would think it would be a beehive of activity. After all one isn't offered a free drink from the Font of Truth every day.

Can anyone confirm or deny this surprising lack of interest?
Gunner

airtaximan said...

It amazes me that anyone can be so contradictory, for nothing...repeating himself for YEARS on the same issue:

"There are 46 e-clips planes listings on Controller - indicative, not definative - but 46 is the record, so far. Folks are selling...their planes and their positions."

Ken, I know you read every word I write, becasue I've predicted some pretty serious issues regarding your beloved airplane non-manufacturer... and "indicative not definitive" is an expression I use to calm you down when you read these facts and almost have a coronary.

There are e-clips 46 listings on Controller - the most in history, so far. As I predicted a few weeks ago, this number will go up. Sorry, I hope you have your angina medication handy.

Fractions are sales Ken. Sorry to tell you. The old ones, well, there have always been old one according to you - I guess they never take down their ads...so what. The 46 is not all the planes for slae either - there are more littering the web and ads in the industry. Also, as of Q-1 (2007...I guess we'll have to start using the years to be clear), Mike press said there were already over 100 folks who sold off their positions. This was 9 months ago, Ken.

I know you try to write something contrarian and confusing to discredit me, and what the other post here, that is accurate...when and if it smells like a critique of the company that had a firm grip on your deposit and progress money - and spent it the electric bill, Dayjets fleet, and the con-jet, not to mention going on a European vacation and trying to bolster the 2500 orders they claim to have while production cranked out 30 planes a year.

Take a deep breath, and begin to noodle a bit. Take you fingers out of your ears, and think. Most of what you vehemently opposed here has been spot on. You've been dead wrong. Nit picking and spell checkng ans insults and confusion, notwithstanding - dead wrong.

Perhaps why Vern calls you guys "Die-hards" - steadfast in you dead wrong position.

airtaximan said...

When do we get to delare that Ken Meyer refuses to acknowledege any risks associated with e-clips the company and the plane?

I think this is a very salient fact.

If someone cannot see any risks in this program or plane, we should be able to understand this. He declares my statements that he does not scknowledge the risks, false - indeed it made him angry to read this in one of my posts - but he will not ever cite one risk.
I believe after all his "input" we deserve an explanation.

- Either he was just accusing me of writing something inaccurate, based on a years worth of observing his posts, for affect.

or-

- he really does see and understand the risks in the program and the plane, yet he somehow cannot bring himself to write them down.

Which is it?

Ken Meyer said...

Actually, Rich, the fascinating thing to me is this:

The only public place where the availability of a open section of the owner's website was announced was...right here!

I was kinda thinking maybe there are a lot of lurkers who read this blog hoping for more information. But you're exactly right--the response to posting on this blog the availability of the owner's site has been completely underwhelming. There just aren't a bunch of lurkers here looking for information on the plane.

Which means you've been wasting your time preaching to the choir here--it's the same 8 or 10 guys who already hate Eclipse that read this stuff. A bunch of guys patting each other on the back telling each other over and over again how they all share a great hate for the company.

But it has been fun :)

Ken

Gunner said...

That's funny, Ken.

A classic Vernism. Response to the Eclipse Enthusiast Site has been, by your own admission, "completely underwhelming"...
Therefore, it must be Stan's fault.

Can I keep this one for my scrapbook? ;-)
Gunner

ps: This is the second most popular site on the internet for Eclipse Aviation. Just behind Eclipse's home page and more hits than Wikipedia. "6 or 8" guys don't build those kind of stats, brother.

Your announcements have been viewed by thousands, courtesy of Stan. If the response was "completely underwhelming", you really need to rethink your assumptions as to causality.

mouse said...

Ken,

Ramp weight was created for airplanes that actually burned fuel, and lots of it. In the Eclipse its just another was for Vern to pump sunshine up your butt.

The insignificant difference on the Eclipse is meaningless. Quoting what you read without understanding it is pretty lame, even for you...

redtail said...

Dick H said... ps: This is the second most popular site on the internet for Eclipse Aviation. Just behind Eclipse's home page and more hits than Wikipedia. "6 or 8" guys don't build those kind of stats, brother.

Dick, you should know better. Or, maybe you don't know much of anything. Placement on Google is spider-based on meta tags and keywords, and has little to do with the number of actual hits. Thanks for you lame insight though.

Shane Price said...

Ken delcares another double negative.

According to the Head Alter Boy, no one is interested in the 'thought controlled' site that Eclipse have put up so...

... no one is interested in finding out about the aircraft.

??!!??!

Even I have problems with the logic behind that one Ken.

I must also admit I had a look at the link you put up.

One look, to be exact.

The last person to ask me that level of personal detail was my future father in law, and look what providing all that information got me....

Joke.

If I was you, I would be WORRIED that the site is doing so little. The only thing that can keep the dream afloat is lots more deposit and progress payments.

Shane

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Black Tulip said...

Whytech said,

“…the E-clips is a 2 place airplane.”

That would be true the way you and I fly airplanes. But remember real airplanes require more onboard equipment than paper airplanes with very long inspection intervals.

I remember the surprise of landing on a completely flat left main tire at Lincoln, Nebraska. The cold temperature during five hours at FL350 had shrunk an O-ring and let out all the nitrogen. That’s the bad news. The good news is I had the custom aircraft jack pads in the tool kit in back. The wheel rim missed the asphalt by half an inch and the FBO had the tire. The runway reopened as we taxied off one hour later.

As an Eclipse owner I’d take all the seats out except two, possibly three. If permitted, this could save a few pounds and reduce chances of exceeding the CG envelope.

Black Tulip

jetaburner said...

EO387

I haven't had the time to play with the spreadsheet but I'm very interested. Looks like Black Tulip has and has confirmed my original statement of a 3 person 800nm plane. Important to note that this is a flight that ATC has kept in the low to mid 30s. Also important to note that 400lbs of fuel was used which is the low end of my reserves for the TBM which is more efficient than the Eclipse at all altitudes and especially down low. Therefore, pilots will probably use bigger reserves especially when flying into congested airspace.

So at the end of the day you have a 3 person, 800nm plane. Why not buy a Meridian (same performance #s), which is about the same to purchase and less to operate, or a used TBM which has better #s? Why does Vern think that he is going to be able to sell 5k of these VLJs when there are already similiar products in the marketplace?

WhyTech said...

BT said:

"The good news is I had the custom aircraft jack pads in the tool kit in back"

Doesnt everyone? I wouldnt leave home without it! Mine is machined out of what appears to be solid steel - must wight 8-10 lbs. Got to love those Swiss!

WT

WhyTech said...

BT said:

"a completely flat left main tire "

Got me to thinking about the consequences of this happening in in E-clips. With the tiny wheels and tires and resulting ground proximity, it seems more likely that that the wheel and/or gear door might be damaged. Without antiskid, it shouldnt be too difficult for a new nervous pilot to lock the brakes on touchdown and blow a tire.

WT

EA50 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
EA50 said...

"So at the end of the day you have a 3 person, 800nm plane."

Well you can keep saying that since it obviously seems to make you feel better.

But the fact is that the Eclipse 500 carries 3 people 1300 nm with IFR reserves. Of course it doesn't go as far if you hold it down low.

I don't see you making the same complaint about the Mustang having a 750 mile range at FL250.

Gunner said...

Jeta and Whytech:

Where do you find portable jacks for aircraft, or are they OEM? I had occasion in East Goatscrew, TX in '05 to manufacture a jacking system from tractor rims, bottle jack and field welded parts. It worked, but hardly portable.

I've looked around since then, but have never seen anything but the full magilla.
Gunner

WhyTech said...

Gunner said:

"Where do you find portable jacks for aircraft"

Gunner,

I dont really know. What BT and I were referring to are jack ADAPTER pads, which make it easy to use conventional automotive jacks to lift a wheel off the ground. On my acft, this plugs into the maingear axle housing and presents a smooth, flat pad to the automotive jack. I am not inclined to try to carry a complete jack around as it would need to have a minimum 5000 lb rating, and would be heavy. In a real pinch, where the FBO had no jack available, I'd run to WalMart and buy a $25 disposable one to get me out of trouble.

WT

Gunner said...

WT-
OK, color me confused. Is your aircraft normally jacked up from the landing gear or from a wing point?
Gunner

jetaburner said...

EA50,

Blog is not about the Mustang, although the Mustang is also not capable enough for my missions. Do you have any Jet time?

Piper sais the Meridian will go 1000nm+ with IFR reserves but I could only get 800nm out of mine (a 20% decrease). I'm sure Vern's numbers are as reliable as every other promise he has made.

Using the spreadsheet developed by an Eclipse owner you get 1100nm under ideal climb and cruise situations and using 400lbs of reserves (very thin for even a VLJ especially one that burns 830pph at 10k at HSC ). My experience in the CJ2 is that ATC likes you at or above FL390 or at or below FL310 in most airspace in the US b/c of faster airline traffic between FL320 and FL380. The Eclipse will have a harder time b/c it is slower and does not climb as well as the CJ2. Therefore, real-world IFR range for the plane, IMHO, is 800nm.

Gunner said...

WT....
Something like This"?

Live and learn. Thanks much for the description.
Gunner

Jim Howard said...

"Where do you find portable jacks for aircraft, or are they OEM?Where do you find portable jacks for aircraft, or are they OEM?"

I have something similar to one of these Aircraft Spruce kits for my Cardinal:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ywzlmg

As an Eclipse owner I’d take all the seats out except two, possibly three. If permitted, this could save a few pounds and reduce chances of exceeding the CG envelope.

On the Eclipse Owners site there is an article by P-Baron owner David Green on his test flights in the EA-500. He liked the plane, but did make this remark:

After exterior pre-flight, we loaded our baggage into the plane. There is ample but not excessive room to store a fair amount of baggage behind the rear seats. The LX interior looks quite nice. Mike had ordered that sixth seat, which is now a fairly expensive “paper weight” next to his desk in his office. In fact Mike and I both thought it would be great to take out one of the 5 seats and just fly with four. But Eclipse has not “certified” this configuration, and as of today it is not “allowed”.

I'd say the articles on the owners web site seem reasonably fair and balanced to me.

Black Tulip said...

EA50 said,

“But the fact is that the Eclipse 500 carries 3 people 1300 nm with IFR reserves.”

Ain’t so. Not based on the performance spreadsheet provided on the Eclipse 500 Club website.

“I don't see you making the same complaint about the Mustang having a 750 mile range at FL250.”

We don’t observe exaggerated performance claims for the Mustang… unlike yours about the Eclipse.

Black Tulip

Black Tulip said...

Jetaburner,

Like you, I wouldn’t be comfortable arriving over my destination with 400lbs of JetA in my Eclipse, especially in weather. I tried to mimic the assumptions in the spreadsheet so I wouldn’t be accused by The Faithful of buggering the data. The spreadsheet shows a range of 250 to 384 pounds, VFR and IFR.

Black Tulip

Gunner said...

Jim-
From my experience on the Eclipse Owners' Forum, the members are pretty straightforward and level headed. Unfortunately, the most vocal few were hardly level headed and set a rather uncomfortable tone.

Again, it's been a year, and tensions were rather high on July '06 with the aeromods announced and early position holders in limbo as to their fate on those mods.

As I said, things may have changed.
Gunner

WhyTech said...

Gunner said:

"Is your aircraft normally jacked up from the landing gear or from a wing point?"

It depends. If all you want to do is change a tire, lube the wheel bearings, change the brake pads, etc, it is easiest to use the jack adapter and an automotive type jack to raaise one wheel off the ground. If you need to work on the landing gear (such as swinging the gear), then you would use conventional acft jacks on the wing jack points.

The point of the jack adapter pad is to avoid needing a set of acft jacks for simple maintenence tasks.


WT

WhyTech said...

Gunner said:

"Something like This"?"

Exactly. These are unique to each acft, so appearance varies quite a bit.

WT

Gunner said...

Thanks much, WT.
I have an email out to the seller on specifics.
Gunner

WhyTech said...

jh quoted:

"But Eclipse has not “certified” this configuration, and as of today it is not “allowed”."

May vary by manufacturer, but my best guess would be that if your shop will sign off on the alternative W&B, certification may not be necessary. (Maybe jets are different?) I have alternative W&B pages in my AFM for 6, 7, and 8 seat configurations, and this was done via a shop sign off. I removed the aft two seats (which I will never need) to make room for cargo; with these seats out, and the standard 400 lb baggage area in the far aft of the acft, its hard to run out of room.


WT

Ken Meyer said...

BT wrote,

"EA50 said,

“But the fact is that the Eclipse 500 carries 3 people 1300 nm with IFR reserves.”

Ain’t so. Not based on the performance spreadsheet provided on the Eclipse 500 Club website."


Yeah, BT; it really is so.

All you gotta to do is plug in a couple of numbers and know that 45 minute reserve at FL 450 is 210 lbs in this plane and you'll get slightly over 1300 nm for the IFR range.

The spreadsheet also shows that the NBAA range is slightly more than the 1125 nm the company has stated.

If you're saying you cannot reproduce that finding in the spreadsheet, you're either doing it wrong or you're not reporting faithfully back what you got.

That said, there's no question (in my mind anyway) that a pilot is unlikely to actually enjoy that 1300 nm range, but that's how all airplane range figures are--the company calculates the range using stated rules (either 45 minutes at cruise or using the NBAA profile), and they publish that as their range. That is, of course, why the "real world" range of all airplanes is always less than the max range quoted in the literature.

Ken

airtaximan said...

9Z,

"Ken - I thought you were all tied in with the Eclipse folks."

He didn't know about the con-jet, and he didn't know about Dayjet having half the order book... in fact, he was argumnentative, contrarian, sure of himself, insulting and rude regarding both or these issues.

Anything he does not like, even directly from Vern's mouth, receives his own personal spin and defense. Ask him to back up his position/opinion...and you get insulted.

I guess that's the character of a true die-hard. Great name Vern gave them...

a37pilot said...

GUNNER

If you want a axle jack adapter for a baron, call Performance Aero, they sell one. Bogert Aviation will sell you a jack kit with various extensions and a bottle jack in a molded case. You could carry that in your baggage compartment it weighs maybe 50 lbs.

Gunner said...

Thanks A-37.
Don't think I have a need for more than the adapter. Looks like Performance Aero's offering would work.

Of course, two days after I take delivery, Mr. Murphy will serve me up a blown nose tire! That's just the kind of guy he is. ;-)

Gunner

a37pilot said...

Gunner:

Two or three heavy guys hanging around the airport to sit on your tail will serve as substitute nose axle adapter. You'll find these even at the most out of the way airports

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