Wednesday, August 08, 2007

Vern's Oshkosh Report

Possibly more than any other trade show, Eclipse looks forward to AirVenture and the annual gathering with customers, friends and fellow aviation enthusiasts in Oshkosh. It is an event that symbolizes innovation and aviation dreams. We know this well as Oshkosh is where Eclipse Aviation was launched in 2000. It is also becoming a vacation destination for families, and Eclipse is playing a role in helping EAA add this new dimension to its aviation mecca heritage.

Last week found our team returning and recovering from all of the excitement of EAA's AirVenture 2007 in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. Now that we have had a chance to reflect on our time in Oshkosh, I would like to share some of the major highlights and successes of this year's AirVenture for Eclipse.

As I am sure most of you know by now, one of the major developments we revealed at the show was the Eclipse Concept Jet (ECJ) - our concept of what a single engine jet should be. While interest in the ECJ was stronger than we ever imagined it would be, I want to reiterate that the ECJ is just that; a concept.

It is not a new Eclipse product, and while customers and non-customers alike begged us to do so, we are not taking deposits. Our number one priority has been and continues to be finishing the Eclipse 500, delivering your airplane on schedule, and giving you an extraordinary after delivery ownership experience. We will not make a decision on whether to move forward with the ECJ until the end of this year at the earliest. I would like to reiterate one more time that there were absolutely no resources diverted from the Eclipse 500 efforts. Although many critics continue to make such claims, it is simply not true. To learn more about the ECJ, please go to
http://www.eclipseconceptjet.com/.

For me, one of the week's high points was seeing many of you stop by our display and visit with our team in our VIP area. More than 200 customers and guests attended our annual customer breakfast on Friday, July 27th, but for those who were not able to join us, I would like to fill you in on what we covered. It was my privilege to start the morning by taking FAA Administrator Marion Blakey and Assistant Administrator for Aviation Policy, Planning, and Environment Dan Elwell on an Eclipse 500 demo flight.

Dan flew the 500 and Marion and I sat in the cabin. We were able to do a low pass over runway 36 allowing her to view the Oshkosh grounds from the air - low and slow. As we finished up our flight, Peg kicked off the customer presentation, and I joined her for the second half.

Peg provided an in-depth program update that covered topics including: Deliveries and Planned Production, Training and Simulators, Pitot / AOA System, Cockpit Windshield and Side Windows, Avio NG Schedule and Functionality, Future Certifications and the Service Center and Maintenance schedule.

Peg also updated everyone on the Performance Improvement Plan which she was pleased to announce had been FAA certified the night before. Below are some of the highlights:

* Our training organization is hiring more instructors and we will have our first Flight Training Device (FTD) online in late August, allowing Eclipse to recover our pilot training schedule by October. The first full-motion simulator will be operational in October.

* The performance improvement modifications have been certified by the FAA, are already in production starting with AC39 and will be retrofitted to the first 38 aircraft. Our Product Support team is in the final stages of planning these upgrades and customer aircraft modifications will begin by mid-September. The majority of these mods will be accomplished in our Eclipse Service Center in Gainesville, Florida.

* The newly-designed windshield and cockpit side windows will be certified by the end of this month, and be upgraded on the first 73 aircraft when the cycle lives are reached.

*Avio NG is expected to be certified by the end of October and in production in November. A matrix of functionality cut-in is provided in the PowerPoint presentation linked below.

* Future certifications, including Flight Into Known Icing (FIKI) and EASA certifications are expected early in 2008.

After Peg's program update, I arrived to spotlight some other big news we announced in Oshkosh. We revealed Eclipse's new color weather radar, which will be manufactured by Japan Radio Company, Ltd. (JRC). This system has the same functionality as the current Honeywell RDR2000 radar, and will be standard equipment later this year. The Honeywell radar will be offered as an additional cost option in the future. The new radar integrates seamlessly with Avio NG and will cut into production with Avio NG.

I also described in depth how Avio NG's scalable and extensible architecture makes it FAA NextGen-ready, making the Eclipse 500 essentially "future-proof."

Furthermore, its easy software update design is a core tenet of Avio NG, extending the value and affordability of the Eclipse 500. This is evidenced by how easy it is to upgrade Avio NG with a common USB drive. In fact, we flew our first Avio NG-equipped flight test aircraft, N506EA, to the show for customers to see on Friday morning and also had an interactive Avio NG demonstrator on display throughout the show. One of the reasons that the ECJ was able to go from design start to first flight in 200 days is that the Avio architecture allowed a seamless drop in - we powered it up and it worked in just four hours.

Another major announcement was the start of our auction sales program, or Bidder's Club. The eBay-powered auction of aircraft serial # 000038 has begun and people are indeed bidding on the plane. The auction gives people who don't want to wait until 2009 a chance to buy and own an Eclipse 500 now. More than 200 people have registered on eBay to bid on the aircraft. The Bidder's Club members, who joined between the year 2000 and 2002 have an advantage because they have been accumulating Eclipse dollars each month since they entered. The auction ends at 8:00 p.m. EDT on August 10th, and the aircraft will immediately be available to the winning bidder for delivery in Albuquerque.

If you missed AirVenture 2007 this year and would like to see the presentation from this year's annual customer breakfast, we have posted an Adobe; pdf on the Eclipse customer only website. To view, click here.

I also want to mention an organizational announcement that we made last week. We have appointed John Ricciardelli (pronounced - Rich-a-deli) as our new vice president of customer experience and support services. John replaces Ken McNamara, who decided to leave Eclipse. He brings to our company 23 years of customer support and program management experience from Honeywell and Bell Helicopter-Textron, and will be responsible for enhancing the existing Eclipse 500 ownership experience. This includes aircraft delivery, pilot and maintenance training, Eclipse Service Center operations, and the delivery of JetComplete. John has an impressive track record with demonstrable results and I am confident he will improve our customer support organization while helping us achieve our long-term goal of setting a new standard for the aircraft ownership experience. I know John looks forward to getting to know all of you in the weeks and months ahead.

Sincerely,

Vern Raburn

President and CEO

244 comments:

1 – 200 of 244   Newer›   Newest»
WhyTech said...

Vern said:

"I would like to reiterate one more time that there were absolutely no resources diverted from the Eclipse 500 efforts"

Not a single dollar, Vern? All those outside consultants must have worked for free, motivated by the wonder of it all.

WT

WhyTech said...

Human behavior:

A former business partner of mine proved to be a compulsive liar. He is smart, accomplished, and wealthy beyond counting. But he can not tell the truth. He would say things that everone new was a lie the minute the words came out, and there was a recurring pattern of this over many years.

I see a similar pattern from The King of Con. Even the weasels are blushing with embarrasment. Sad.

WT

JetProp Jockey said...

Posted this morning on AV Web - Business Edition:

"DayJet -- the "per-seat on-demand" air taxi that plans to begin service later this month in Florida using Eclipse 500s – on Tuesday announced it "has closed debt facilities totaling $140 million" for the acquisition of its very light jet fleet. Perhaps shedding some light on the company's previously and widely reported "orders" from Eclipse, the company stated, "The facilities include senior debt on the aircraft and financing of pre-delivery deposits." DayJet has so far raised more than $200 million pre-operational dollars in anticipation of services yet to be provided with aircraft yet to be delivered for a VLJ air-taxi market yet to be proven in practice."

Do I detect a note of sarcasm?

Black Tulip said...

In the Vernacular of Eclipse Aviation, we have…

‘Value Proposition’

‘Disruptive Technology’

and now

‘Future-Proof’

I like the last one best but it is fraught with peril. You can be future-proof by developing the ideal product, adaptable for improvements for years to come.

A future-proof product would also be one that doesn’t make it presently or get very far into the future.

Black Tulip

BCT said...

I have never posted on here before and I don't know if this is the right place to put my comments... but I am going to do it anyway... haha. I have followed this blog since it started. I think it has been informative and interesting most of the time. I appreciate that someone has taken the time to set it up.

I am an aviation insider and I was at OSH for the week. Eclipse seemed to be a big topic of conversation and events for the week. I made some observations while I was there.

First, the quality of the 500. Eclipse has their airplane fairly well guarded at OSH. But there was an operator who was selling fractions in an E-500 on the South end of the displays. They had a new 500 just sitting there in the grass where anyone could walk around it, get in it, and give it the "once over". I was shocked at the poor quality of construction. The wings were oil-canned, fairings didn't fit well and there were a shocking number of non-flush rivets (wasn't this airplane supposed to be welded together?). It was startling to see this airplane and then walk over to the "dinosaur" who had their new LSA on display. That $100k machine seemed to be far superior in fit and finish to the E-500.

Secondly, the aircraft I looked at had MANY things on the panel placarded INOP. The funny thing was the clever way in which they were marked. INOP placards are narmally a big sticker slapped on temporarily. The placards on the e-clips were clever in their construction and placement. They looked like they belonged and would, I suspect, be so subtle as to not stand out to potential customers, etc. It seemed strange.

Lastly, I spent the week talking with people at the show. I estimate that I talked to 1000s of AirVenture attendees. I noticed a real cynicism towards the E-500. I didn't run into anyone that I can remember who was buying their story. Most were making fun of the fact that Eclipse was trying to divert attention with the single-engine jet.

Just my observations for now. Hopefully for the benefit of those who weren't able to attend.


BCT

Metal Guy said...

“I would like to reiterate one more time that there were absolutely no resources diverted from the Eclipse 500 efforts. Although many critics continue to make such claims, it is simply not true.”

It’s very interesting that he is doing tremendous back-peddling on the ECJ. Not what one would have expected from someone with his ego.

It sounds to me like the depositors are making a stink that their “deposits” were used to develop the ECJ. Which of course is true, because there is only one bucket of money (see the word “resources” above) defined as the bucket that Vern controls and decides what to do with. I seriously doubt that investors were in on this either just given his loose-cannon style…

If the purpose was to give the company another life-line and hope on the horizon, it may have backfired – big time.

I have also seen this type of highly public back-peddling just before said someone decides to “move on” in their career. Let’s all hope.

WhyTech said...

bct said:

"They looked like they belonged and would, I suspect, be so subtle as to not stand out to potential customers, etc. It seemed strange."

You dont understand. These INOP placards are permanent.:-)

WT

Metal Guy said...

Here we go again – ready by Tuesday. Anyone have access to the “matrix of functionality cut-in”?

fred said...

Bct ...

you probably know vern is coming from computer industry ....

there , it is called "Vaporware" !

sparky said...

Concerning the ECJ, vern likes to brag about the "200 days from inception to flight" as if it's something they accomplished.

All eclipse did was hand over the wings, nose and avionics. That's it. VERY little engineering was done by eclipse.

Anything this jet does just shows what can be accomplished when you let people that know what they're doing do their jobs without outside interference.

It just galls me to have vern say "look what we did" and "we weren't involoved" in the same sentence.

WhyTech said...

Vern said:

"“matrix of functionality cut-in”?"

This no doubt means that Avio NG will be dribbled out in agonizingly small bits for the forseeable future. Say goodbye to a "completed" airplane in 2008!

WT

EclipseOwner387 said...

Metal Guy,

I don't think Eclipse got much backlash from depositors on ECJ. Vern nipped it in the bud by being careful from the beginning to stress the low amount of corporate resources that went into the development. I think critics have been the truly vocal ones. Did depositors have concerns? Absolutely! But it seems to be pretty much a non-issue. I also reported that on the COPA site their was some general excitement to see Cirrus have a potential competitior. Maybe just to keep Cirrus on their toes but much of the talk was of sincere interest. COPA has the Eclipse bashers too. Don't get me wrong. One of the bashers says he got into aviation because of the promise of the Eclipse but now sees Eclipse as the Enron of GA. I work in the energy fiancial biz and lost a lot of money because of Enron. At this point, Eclipse is no Enron. But even with that said - Enron took the industry that I enjoy today and took it to a new level. So I have more than made back all that Enron lost me - by a large margin.

fred said...

just been on the phone with someone from EASA , asking him : "E500 certifyied beginning 2008 ?"

answer : "be serious ! how do you want thing to be finished before they start !"

and what is "beginning" ???

i would say till the 1er of july , it is the first part of the year ... ;-))

Gunner said...

Note that Vern never once thanked Ken McNamara for his loyalty, hard work or the heat he took. That's a pretty telling omission, in terms of a glimpse into the man's style. "He's gone; move on".
Gunner

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"Enron took the industry that I enjoy today and took it to a new level. So I have more than made back all that Enron lost me - by a large margin. "

Any words of wisdom for the thousands who were wiped out financially by Enron? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just observing that the faithful are far too forgiving IMHO.

WT

Niner Zulu said...

"I would like to reiterate one more time that there were absolutely no resources diverted from the Eclipse 500 efforts".

That says nothing.

Vern, please tell us: Where did the parts and money to build the ECJ come from?

fred said...

yes ...

more and more funny

(only as to say , humor isn't it the politness of despair ??)

i openned an english translation book , looked at "vern"

i wonder why they wrote = wordsmithering !!

Stan Blankenship said...

In an answer to a question on the previous post, hotdog offered the following...brought forward here for better visibility:

"We and many other suppliers have obviously become skeptical of what Eclipse claims their production numbers will be. We learned our lesson with the first significant program slip to be very proactive in micro-managing our inventory and limiting our exposure. However, we have a contract and valid PO requirements to meet so we have to deliver. They have lost creditability with the supply chain for sure but we are all too far into this to not try and work with them to meet their goal. Eclipse production is only successful if the vendors deliver good parts and on time. Otherwise, the whole process comes to a halt and that is bad for all of us. We just have to protect ourselves the best way we can and hope that they get their act together."

hummer said...

niner zulu. .
Look at the last money Eclipse received and you'll 10 mil commissions and 50 million payout.
Wonder who received the 50 million?

hummer said...

FIND

fred said...

hummer ...

so it's 50 E500 didn't received to be rolling out and take off ...

hummer said...

bct
Thanks for your comments.
What you saw was disturbing.
What you didn't see is more distrubing.
Without quality control in the production of the E500 how can
anyone fly the aircraft with
confidence?
Final weights, range and speed are important.
But flying in adverse conditions
is critical.

hummer said...

Fred
It's hard to pity the "early adopters" who will be getting
their aircraft for $975,000. with
a lot of IOUs. With great gain
comes great risks. When something
is too good to be true. . . .
Buyer Beware. . .wasn't written yesterday.
So to answer your question. . .
$400 mil (original estimate of new money) less $210 mil (that he netted) equals 180 mil not rolling off the line.
BTW, I still don't see too many rolling off the line, do you?
Must not be a function of money.

EclipseOwner387 said...

Whytech said "Any words of wisdom for the thousands who were wiped out financially by Enron? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just observing that the faithful are far too forgiving IMHO."

Unfortunately you want to make Enron a one trick pony. The Enron story is more complex than that. My point is that MOST of the employees of Enron were GOOD people and were instrumental in my industry. Unfortunately the corruption of a few execs brought down the company and people (like myself) lost significant money. People have been indicted/convicted/punished. It was criminal. BUT IT DOESN"T MEAN EVERYTHING ENRON DID WAS A CRIME!!!!

I wasn't here trying to spit in the face of hardworking people who lost their pensions. A crime was committed. I had nothing to do with it and I am fortunate to have been able to survive it. What do you want? For me to apologize for building a succesful business that endured a major industry meltdown??

Look at the market caps of NYMEX and ICE. Are they apologizing?

I am not forgiving. I had no choice. But thanks for trying to somehow throw me under the bus. Your observation skills stink and you are so biased I believe you do like to just pick fights. You have no ability to look at the entire picture. Enron means one thing to you. What did you do for the people that were wiped out by Enron? Did you send in a donation? I kept my company together during a tough time and created more jobs. I even hired some of those who lost jobs because of Enron. I think you have done a nice job showing what kind of person you are. As a critic, you try to find fault in anything the faithful do. IMHO

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"As a critic, you try to find fault in anything the faithful do. IMHO "

Looks like I struck a nerve again. Like I said, I was not trying to pick a fight. What do YOU want? Lighten up, pal!

WT

fred said...

hummer ...

what i was pointing out :

if you need to raise new funds , you should FIRST finish what is started ....

if you translate that into vern's practise , you may wonder why a new concept has been launched , and why some outside firms and ingeneers made just for free ???

and then , why it has been made with "no intents of production" ...

all things don't really add-up together ....

the ones whom eventually will get a plane at less than a million are great guys ...

they took the risk , if they got theirs planes , i will be the first to offer them a bottle of champagne ...

but still , looking from from far and outside , the whole thing seems to be ..... (sorry i lack the proper word for that ...)

it's a dream plane , just hope no one is going to be told in a while : "welcome back to reality ...!!"

airtaximan said...

REGARDING DELIVERING A PLANE A DAY IN AUGUST...

I remember 57 planes in production in Feb/March timeframe... and there have been 20 or so "delivered" so far...

How many planes are in work, in total now?

Will it really be so fantastic a feat if e-clips manages to "deliver" 20-30 planes in August, if many of them were started in 2006, or 5-6 months ago anyways?

HD, any clue as to how many planes have been stared production in the last few months? How many on the floor?

EclipseOwner387 said...

Whytech,

I don't buy it. Just because you said you didn't want to start a fight doesn't make it so. I don't have that much "faith." I have been around long enough to know you meant that as a low blow. But hey, I don't mean anything by this either. It is all academic. In all sincerity. Seriously.

Whatever.

Gunner said...

ISSC is up ANOTHER 3 points today. Now I'm certain it's a short-covering rally. Stay tuned for another second chance to make make money on the EA-50X, without ever having to deal with the company!
Gunner

mirage00 said...

Why said... Any words of wisdom for the thousands who were wiped out financially by Enron? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just observing that the faithful are far too forgiving IMHO.

For one to expect or ask things of others that he himself, if asked, would not be willing to do or give, is the worst kind of arrogance.
Anthony Beal

The truest characters of ignorance are vanity, and pride and arrogance.
Samuel Butler

I remain amused

double 00

EclipseOwner387 said...

Gunner,

It could be a takeover situation so be careful shorting. I know a few stocks I would like to short but the m&a activity is still very high right now.

HotDog said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WhyTech said...

EO said:

"Whatever. "

In reading your comments on Enron, whether you intended it or not, there is a flavor of "I did great so it was OK." If you dont see how one might have concluded this, read your post again. I did not suggest that you need to apologize for your success.

This blog is a place wher consenting adults can offer opinions (even controversial ones)for a fair hearing provided that it is done in a well intentioned and reasonably respectful way. My personal style, while quite direct, is far more conciliatory than confrontational, and I think that you will find my posts consistent with this. I have never come unglued in my responses to personal attacks such as yours, nor have I initiated such attacks.

You are going to read some things on this blog you dont like. If you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

WT

EclipseOwner387 said...

Whytech, thats how you decided to read it because of your bias. Looking for something to comeback at me on. To imply what Enron did was OK on the criminal side is assinine. What I will say is Enron did do some good things that carried forward. Where Enron blew up had nothing to do with my industry and that is the saddest part of all. It was the fact they were trying to expand past core compentancy's and then cover up the losses.

Kitchen - back at you. You decided to pick a fight and I am fighting back. You were wrong and a simple apology would have ended this my now. But your ego is too great.

airtaximan said...

WT,

this guys really smart, well informed, and level headed. Probably more than the rest of us. He's also a nice guy, and I am sure he did not mean anything smartass about the Enron thing.

FWIW, I did not take your comment to be a swipe at him, either.

I actually agree with him, that e-clips has its issues, but in the end, might actually create opportunity for everyone who plays their cards right. I don't think you'll disagree...

There's a lot of inertia there, a lot of money, politcal clout, customers, a product that's being finished... and a ton of problems.

All this is cured with time and money. It's a speculators market now for everyone...

...and he's the best we've seen.
- like I said, I think he's a prety stand up, nice guy.

mirage00 said...

I know exactly how many are in production and when they were started but I’m not about to post that information here. Sorry but I have an obligation to my employer and customer not to reveal sensitive information like that.

But you are at liberty to reveal this
We have been in very difficult positions on several occasions to meet impossible schedules “at all costs”. If we did not, we were incompetent or not committed enough for Eclipse. This despite the fact we were working to a moving target spec that seem to change hourly. This is no exaggeration either. I’ve reviewed ECR’s (Engineering Change Releases) that changed three or four times in a single day. In fact, Eclipse is still changing specs and revising things to this very day.


I see...

I remain amused

double 00

airtaximan said...

HD,

I am not trying to pinpoint you, or call you out. I appreciate the insght and your participation here... just trying to get a feel.

Do you think my feeling that e-clips is trying to deliver planes in August that were started months and months ago?

And... do they have a back load of planes in work beyong say 50 or 60 planes started from the initial plane a year ago?

- and would you really know? I mean, without telling us, would they stockpile your part(s) or would they order as needed, in smaller lots?

Again, just say "back off"... if you think this creates problems for you.

And...thanks.

WhyTech said...

EO said:

" I am fighting back"

You win.

WT

WhyTech said...

ATM said:

"I actually agree with him, that e-clips has its issues, but in the end, might actually create opportunity for everyone who plays their cards right. I don't think you'll disagree..."

I am in violent agreement with this. My big issue with E-clips is the total lack of integrity they have displayed in dealing with just about everyone - makes me wild.

WT

HotDog said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mirage00 said...

So this isn't fact or as you put it "exact program details"?

This is no exaggeration either. I’ve reviewed ECR’s (Engineering Change Releases) that changed three or four times in a single day. In fact, Eclipse is still changing specs and revising things to this very day.

No distortion, just an observation.

I remain amused

double 00

AlexA said...

Am I on the right Blog? Is the pendulum swinging back? The new consensus appears to be that even with an ambitious goal Eclipse, will ultimately get the job done. Add a little more money and time and all is well. Even vendors are stating that they are moving in the right direction. Can we now get back to traffic cameras?

Niner Zulu said...

Hotdog,

You'll soon learn that unless you regurgitate the Eclipse party line, ad nauseum, the faithful will try to turn you into Hotdog On a Stick ;-).

Stan Blankenship said...

HD,

You probably don't want to answer this one either, but I will ask and fully understand if you can't:

Early in the program, Eclipse was reported to be proposing payment terms for suppliers based not on when the goods arrive at Eclipse, but rather some period (10 days?) after the goods are delivered to a customer, airplane by airplane. Is this SOP?

EclipseOwner387 said...

HD,

If it helps I see your point. You are walking a fine line to even be on this blog. Strangely, your posts give me MORE confidence in Eclipse's succeeding. I would expect that morale and such could be pretty low when a company has been promising an overdue product for years. The stress to make it happen has to be at the highest levels. This will continue until Eclipse proves that the plan is finally working. They need to demonstrate that they can sell, build, certify and deliver at a profit. I am sure each milestone relieves some pressure but it will just build again as the company tackles another milestone. I was there taking delivery. I sensed it. They are working through what it takes to now be a production company (not a sales company.) If the place wasn't high strung I would be MORE nervous about my investment in the product.

Vern said it in his letter. The focus is finishing the EA500. He didn't say we are done so let's declare victory.

Black Tulip said...

Hotdog,

No need to respond but I've got it narrowed down. Your company will provide Eclipse Aviation with either the:

Ballistic Parachute System

or

Amphibious Floats

or

Banner and Glider Tow Kit.

Black Tulip

HotDog said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

Thank you Hotdog,

For more things than one!!!

HotDog said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Black Tulip said...

Hotdog,

Please don't go 'back under your rock'. Please stay out on the playground with the rest of us.

Black Tulip

Gunner said...

Hotdog-
Few of us respond to Mirage, and for good reason. There's really nothing to respond to. The most recent was a case in point: It's clear you were being supportive of the company; it's clear you know exactly where personal observations end and proprietary information begins; and it's clear you're not going to cross that line.

You were warned, however. You'll need to toe the ENTIRE company line to get any reaction other than a nip from The Faithful. Take a lesson from EO386; he has an honest and different opinion from The Critics. But, he doesn't pass the KoolAid cup so he's mostly ignored by The Faithful. In your case, given your position, observation and knowledge, they won't ignore you. So what?

This Blog is a VERY important Eclipse resource. No new Depositor with internet access could possibly consider a position without running across this site. To the extent that you have an interest in seeing Eclipse succeed, you can do much to help by staying right here.

Most everyone truly interested in the EA-50X is looking for facts, insight and first hand knowledge. A few are too frightened to look; a couple are actually PAID to spin. But, ultimately, the truth comes out; and a LOT of truths have come out on this Blog before they were picked up by the mainstream press.

I think you have much to offer. Ignore the chihuahuas. They're spring loaded for aggression against anything that does not serve their immediate needs; but their bite is little more than a momentary annoyance.
Gunner

airtaximan said...

EO,
"He didn't say we are done so let's declare victory."

He did this over a year ago, and then again in September, and then again in January...

How many time can you pop a cork, celebrate, and declare victory, until every reads WOLF, WOLF WOLF into ALL your statements?

Depends on the degree of "die-harness" I guess.

EclipseOwner387 said...

AirJordan,

Did you celebrate the birth of a child? Did you celebrate graduating from grade school? High school? College?

No rebuttal needed but until the little EA500 is put out there all by its lonesome the job is not done but a few celebrations along the way is usually normal. Hell I even drank a toast to my first EA500 delivery (a couple toasts actually!!)

But I know what you are trying to say. I was referring to the message of this letter to customers/investors.

cj3driver said...

Only 2 days left to bid on #38. So far only two bidders. Still $50K below list price and over $100K below with “Eclipse dollars”.

We’ll see, but, … I think the “revolutionary” method of selling light jets is going to backfire. They have 39 more to sell this way before the end of the year, … that, of course, is assuming they meet the revised production goal of 200 this year.

I am surprised that there aren’t more different bidders at this point. With the huge backlog, one would think a later position holder would want to move up, take delivery now, and sell the later position. Especially someone who has a $1,520K w/cpi base. 38 is way less money (so far). Maybe they are waiting for the next auction…

Two days time will tell.

cj3driver said...

Another new Eclipse market is emerging. I just found an ad for someone selling “Eclipse Dollars”

Now thats "disruptive" ... I figure there must be over $5,000,000 eclipse dollars out there.

Found another market Mr. Press...

This should get interesting.

gadfly said...

Rest easy, friends. We have it from "the man”, hisself, . . . there will be no completed "Paper Clips" delivered this year, 2007. And I quote:

"Future certifications, including Flight Into Known Icing (FIKI) and EASA certifications are expected early in 2008."

gadfly

(HotDog: Is the policy of Eclipse to receive parts "JIT" ("Just In Time") ? Or are vendors allowed to deliver early, and invoice immediately?)

Gunner said...

Gad-
From what I've heard, off the record, the vendors are not real concerned about delivery schedules or inventory policies. They're more worried about getting paid, period. Seems delivery has little to do with payment in VernWorld.

Gunner

AlexA said...

Gunner said “From what I've heard, off the record…” Interesting assumption Gunner but D&B says differently. Oh never mind I have been classified as a “Faithfull.” God forbid we let facts cloud our allegations.

gadfly said...

Gunner

To stay a "moving target", I'm trying "real hard" to not assume anything, but just take people at their word. Even the "big boys" often take unfair advantage of the "little guys". Our best customer is not to be trusted to pay on time, so we go through a middle "buyer" that has the clout to get us paid for our work.

gadfly

('Like I said earlier, a couple of times, no complete EA500 will be delivered by the end of this year, and the score will remain, as it is right now: "Zero". Even Vern says so.)

cj3driver said...

Gunner said;

" ... They're (vendors) are more worried about getting paid, period. Seems delivery has little to do with payment in VernWorld..."



... unless you are an Eclipse customer. Eclipse is pretty tough on those progress payments.

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/index.php?option=com_newsroom&task=viewpr&id=1161&Itemid=52

gadfly said...

Alexa

You got my interest when you mentioned "D&B". I learned a long time ago, that "D&B" does little to verify "the facts" of their records. I have seen, up close and personal, people taken to the cleaners by a company that had an excellent D&B rating. And all they had to do was "their homework", and have their people visit Albuquerque.

By the way, the leaders of that company with the excellent D&B rating spent time in prison for violation of over eighty counts of interstate fraud . . . and they had "bribed" an individual at Sandai National Labs, to obtain certain contracts. They're all gone now, but D&B could have had easy access to this information . . . but never bothered.

In the thirty-one years of our own company being in the D&B records, and rated by them, they have never, once, in three decades, bothered to verify their records. I wouldn't trust D&B if they said that the sun was out at noon.

gadfly

(And now you've discovered a subject that get's me more than a little agry.)

Gunner said...

Alexa said:
"Interesting assumption Gunner but D&B says differently"

And I thought you were in business for yourself?

I have a customer that is squeaky clean according to D&B.
Ordered $10K in advertising from me and never paid dime one. At $6K and 6 months past due, he lied for the second time about sending a check. One of my competitors then informed me they're owed, too. Here's his email response, Alexa:

"I welcome collection agencies as it simply gives me the opportunity to split the bill in half in order to settle.

As to the small advertising community…. Also an issue I lose very little sleep over.
I pay my bills and that is my reputation. Yes I will pay some vendors based on priority. Advertising bills are often paid last. Sorry that is a fact of life in my business. They will be paid, but only when I allocate a budget.


So don't lecture me about Dunn and Bradstreet. They may offer a "data point", but hardly serve as a credit reference; especially with guys like this (and Vern) who go thru life with a sense of personal birthright.
Gunner

HiFlyer said...

Stan,

I noticed the delivery contest spreadsheet hasn't been updated since late June. Do you have the latest numbers?

AlexA said...

Gunner,

If I am mistaken I would certainly retract the following: My point is that you have made it clear what business you are in and it’s not in aviation. Yet you make a statement that vendors (meaning multiple vendors) are worried about getting paid from Eclipse. I have a hard time believing you would have such inside knowledge Do you know the AR folks in these companies? How ‘bout the owners? Was it Fred? Where did you get this info? In the past you had a propensity for exaggeration and out of courtesy I did not call you on it.

So was your comment exaggeration or wishful thinking on your part or really “inside” information. My vote is on number 2. You tend to call Ken to the carpet on facts, so where are the facts?

Funny thing is I would not be at all surprise if Eclipse was late with various vendors; I just question the veracity of your post. By the way if you are going to throw around that “faithful” BS and “Kool-aid” stuff save your key strokes we have all heard them before.

When you want to talk facts and opinions let me know I just received a DVD on D-Jet and have some questions.

Gunner said...

Alexa-
You have fixated so much on where I live, where I purchase aircraft, where my office is and where I eat that you've lost the forest for the trees; and caused me some little concern as to the nature of your obvious personal interest in me.

But we'll leave that rather inappropriate behavior for another day; and continue to assume you're a female, as your screen name implies.

You believe my livelihood comes from from publishing a magazine. Bad assumption. While you might live on the income, I'd starve. I publish a newsstand magazine because I love the challenge and believe in the subject matter and content. It flourishes, though I take no salary out of it. Let it go.

As to aviation, my bona-fides have already been stated. To my knowledge yours are in the fact that you "company" owns an aircraft. So be it.

Now to my veracity and contacts: I couldn't care less what your opinion is there; unless I might do something to raise you off your knees and prise your tiny, sharp teeth from my ankle.

Okay?
Gunner

mirage00 said...

Alexa-
You have fixated so much on where I live, where I purchase aircraft, where my office is and where I eat that you've lost the forest for the trees; and caused me some little concern as to the nature of your obvious personal interest in me.

But we'll leave that rather inappropriate behavior for another day; and continue to assume you're a female, as your screen name implies.

You believe my livelihood comes from from publishing a magazine. Bad assumption. While you might live on the income, I'd starve. I publish a newsstand magazine because I love the challenge and believe in the subject matter and content. It flourishes, though I take no salary out of it. Let it go.

As to aviation, my bona-fides have already been stated. To my knowledge yours are in the fact that you "company" owns an aircraft. So be it.

Now to my veracity and contacts: I couldn't care less what your opinion is there; unless I might do something to raise you off your knees and prise your tiny, sharp teeth from my ankle.

Okay?
Gunner


And that my dear friends is called a "Tap Dance"

I remain amused

double 00

bill e. goat said...

"He (Vern) didn't say we are done so let's declare victory."

ATM said:
He did this over a year ago, and then again in September, and then again in January...

Goat: Jolly good show!

EO seconds this...I think.

airtaximan said...

EO,

birthdays, graduations, etc... yes... all good celebrations.

I believed Vern has declared Victory, though, on more than one occasion. Last year the "we're now moving into a production compnay!" - not true - they are still designing the plane. DO you THINK he knew this? Of course... He still celebrated, claimed victory - it was bogus.

I think his remarks regarding "we proved them all wrong!" basically meant "victory"... no?

I would think that in a case like this, the birthdays are not a good analogy - they automatically happen on schedule every year. There's no real accomplishment - perhaps Vern should celebrate e-clips birthdays?

Regarding the graduations... yes, one graduates, and MOVES ALONG - this IS NOT THE CASE WITH E-CLIPS. As the HotDog stated, the design is not finished, the design is a moving target.

Any declaration of victory is half baked...BS, for the depositors, reporters and investors. And you know this.

As for the bogus claims and celebrations, they all involve claiming "victory"... and in reality - they were lies.

It would be like Barry Bonds declaring victory a year ago... even with the cheating, at least he actually waiting until he actually passed Hank Aaron before claiming Victory.

- I'm happy you seem to see my point a lttle, but I really don't understand why you try to use birthdays etc.. to defend him.

EclipseOwner387 said...

AirBarryBonds,

If you were an employee and you recieved a type cert would you have wanted some form of celebration for the team morale? Or does the team have to suffer because you hate Vern so much?

Metal Guy said...

alexa,
I was told a while back by the CEO of one of their major suppliers that they were well past due on over $2M from Eclipse. Don’t know if this is “hearsay” or not – your call.

It’s probably all settled up by now, but they do not have a squeaky clean record for payment.

Don’t expect vendors to report issues to D&B. It’s just not in the long-term interests of the vendors to do much about it given the sledge hammer legal tactics they take with vendors that disagree with them. Been there done that and no-one, repeat no-one wants to go there.

EclipseOwner387 said...

AirTaxiMan as CEO of Eclipse:

"Today friends and customers Eclipse twisted the FAA's arm into a type certificate. While this may seem like an achievement worth celebrating - we will not in anyway whatsoever give the critics something to be critical. Thus I declare today a day of mourning for not completeing the job completely even though we have definitely jumped the biggest hurdle that many new aircraft companies never clear. Back to work! Nose to the grindstone and all that good stuff. I am off to meet with the press to declare how superior my competition is and how I someday hope to be just like them. I am also returning deposit money that will put you out of work soon because I feel lousy trying to hold this ship together any longer. I will put a good word in for you over at Adams. They are out of money too but they aren't certified or celebrating anything either so I thought you would feel right at home."

Sincerely,
AirTaxiMan
CEO

gadfly said...

Come on, folks, the subject is an airplane, and the company that sells it. Let's stay focused.

Promises were made that are not being kept. Excuses have been offered which are worth what excuses are worth.

Various folks have offered opinions (good) and others have made personal attacks (bad).

Some folks make the same statements, over and over, presumably because they have nothing new to say. Maybe they should stop talking, until their two brain cells can come together on something worth saying.

My comments are worth no more than yours, but I make some attempt to re-read them, with the "Preview" button, before I hit the "Publish Your Comment" button.

Someday, if this little jet should ever get beyond the "experimental stage", someone's loved one's life will depend on the safety and reliability of this contraption. That appears to be a long way away.

Until then, maybe the comments can contribute to the solution of this fiasco, rather than making attempts to destroy another's reputation.

Alright . . . enough of my preaching.

gadfly

Gunner said...

EO-
I don't think it requires self-flagellation. Just a LOT less personal pomp and hype. Let 'em take a lesson from Cessna, Embraer or Diamond. Hell, even Cirrus and Epic are less "in-yo-face" than Eclipse.

Just get the job done. Deal with your problems (vendors and depositors) as you deal with your investors...behind the scenes. Don't try to make public fools and scapegoats out of them (and the entire aviation interested public). ie: The plane isn't finished. So what, neither are most of theirs and they don't seem to have "morale" problems that need to be addressed at the sake of everyone else's intelligence. Admit it and move on; stop comparing the EA-50X to the Mustang. Nobody's listening anymore (except Ken).

I suspect, if Eclipse (Vern) had taken that approach they'd be exactly where they are today; only without having blown an unnecessary $600 million and without an Eclipse Critics Blog.

There's a reason why Eclipse gets picked on...they BEG for it by insulting the rest of us.

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"AirTaxiMan as CEO of Eclipse:"

Just about perfect. Sure, its important to celebrate all the victories, but its also important to keep in mind which are really important and which are relatively routine.

At the risk of unintentionally starting another fight, as one who has been involved in a great many product development programs, I can assure you that developing the product (certification) is rerely the most challenging task. The really hard part is building a successful business once the product is developed. The development process is mostly under the direct control of the company. Unless the product is really out there in terms of technical difficulty, it will happen if the company can keep the program funded. Success in the marketplace depends on many factors not under the company's direct control - much more difficult.

So, celebrate, but keep it real.

WT

Stan Blankenship said...

hiflyer,

Flightcenter is managing the pages covering the deliveries, C of A's and the prediction contest. He is traveling this month and probably won't make any updates. Entries for the contest closed June 30.

WhyTech said...

gunner said:

"I suspect, if Eclipse (Vern) had taken that approach they'd be exactly where they are today; only without having blown an unnecessary $600 million and without an Eclipse Critics Blog."

And I would be one of thousands carrying Vern on my shoulders through AeroShell Square.

WT

airtaximan said...

EO,

Perhaps the reason I am not a CEO of an e-clips type operation has something to do with my naivite on these sorts of matters.

- normally, you do not declare victory unless you are in some sort of contest or war. In the case of e-clips, Vern has always had this attitude, and that's just too bad.

- I suspect most people of any consequence at e-clips knew the celebrations were BS. The first declaration of Victory was the prov-TC. The plane was clearly not ready...
- the second declaration of Victory was at the TC... and the plane was clearly not ready for prime time.
- the third declaration of Victory was at PC, and the plane was still not ready...

If it were me, I would celebrate birthday-like milestones, untile the graduation-like milestones are met.

Perhaps there would be no company left nder my command, perhaps it would be a totally different type company with greater success.

One thing is for sure, I do not have freinds like Gates and I do not know how to rasie or blow $1.x billion. I do not know how to lie to the public and press without losing sleep.

I still don't know why you seem to be defending him, though.

Perhaps you are smarter than me, and you think this sort of behavior is what it takes?

So, is it a war? A contest? Or are they building a plane that is not finished, and the celebrated early and declared victory on themselves?

EclipseOwner387 said...

AirTaxiMan,

I respect your opinion on this. I had fun writing the "speech." I hope it made you laugh. Let's get a beer when this all "over." I am 41 now so I figure I will still be alive by then.

:-)

Gunner said...

Gotta love this guy!
:-D

Gunner

airtaximan said...

EO,
41's pretty young, I don't think I'll make it!

- is it serious that there's a market for eclip'd-ya dollars?

- 20 folks should get together and buy a plane for e-dollars. Wouldn't that be a hoot.

airtaximan said...

BTW, EO...

I think your BI-POLAR medication is stale...

WhyTech said...

ATM said:

"I think your BI-POLAR medication is stale.."

You have just surpassed BT and Stan in creativity.

WT

Ken Meyer said...

gunner wrote,

"Most everyone truly interested in the EA-50X is looking for facts, insight and first hand knowledge. A few are too frightened to look; a couple are actually PAID to spin."

Somebody on the blog is PAID to spin? Is that what you're trying to say with that convoluted paragraph?

Who is paid to spin?

Ken

airtaximan said...

Mallia CEO of Kingfisher airlines, distilleries etc... has agreed to finance Epic.

He's a billionaire, and he runs an airline.

I suspect Vern is in a barnd new war, in his mind. Epic will give Vern a run for his investors money...and Mallia has deep pockets and connections all around the world to make Epic a huge success.

I saw Schrameck at NBAA last year, and I suspect he will be totally unlike Vern, except where Vern is directly concerned. He does not seem afraid to take swipes at Vern just for the fun of it.

Epic has some cool competitive advantages, and seems to have developed a line of planes for a fragment of what Vern blew for just one.

I expect the landscape to change dramatically in the next year or so - and I would not be surprised if Epic causes tremendous problems for Vern and e-clips' position in the marketplace.

Whoever said this blog will be dead, any time soon was clearly wrong. I think Vern will be scambling for new products and he will be in a very competitive market. For 10 years, he enjoyed leading the VLJ market, and dismissing competition.

Epic will probably provide some real entertainment.

airtaximan said...

WT,

Thanks.

From your tech background, what do you know of Schrameck...Epic... etc...

EclipseOwner387 said...

Bi-Polar ~

Hmm. I am a Gemini. You might be on to something....

WhyTech said...

ATM said:

"From your tech background, what do you know of Schrameck...Epic... etc... "

Not much - about all I can claim is that a friend "built" and flies LT #11 (or #12?). He says he couldnt be happier, even though he is a reluctant test pilot. After carefully looking over the new Epic airplanes at OSH, I can only agree that Vern has a whole new set of issues to deal with, and a far greater competitive threat than Adam, IMHO.

WT

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"Epic has some cool competitive advantages, and seems to have developed a line of planes for a fragment of what Vern blew for just one."

...if they can certify a plane. You left out one small detail from your endorsement:

Epic has yet to certify a single plane!

Last year, I looked pretty seriously at the the possibility of buying the Epic Dynasty; I was told it was already undergoing certification testing. It's a great plane, and I think it would suit my purposes pretty well. But I'm concerned that Epic doesn't seem to be much closer to certification of the Dynasty than they were last year at this time, yet they're proposing a whole series of additional aircraft.

I think they may well be a real contender at some point. But right now, they're about where Eclipse was a few years ago--lots of interesting ideas, but no certified aircraft and no real sign that one will be certified soon.

How Epic moves forward from here will determine whether they are a real contenter or not. Right now, for all anybody knows, they're just Safire Aircraft Company :)

Ken

airtaximan said...

OK, here's some meat and potatos...

found this online... figger'd I let you smart folks have a looksee and tell me if anything strikes you...

I THINK its dated 5-20-2007...
I think this might help HUMMER in his quest for what's holding up Dayjet?
You might have to read between the lines.

Remember, (IF my memory serves me correclty) Dayjet launch was supposed to be a few years ago, then slated mid-2006, then end-2006, then second quarter 2007, then mid-2007, now...Tuesday...

N-joy.

http://www.halldale.com/Assets/
Files/WATS%202007/DayJet.ppt

airtaximan said...

Ken said:

"Last year, I looked pretty seriously at the the possibility of buying the Epic Dynasty"

Why?

bill e. goat said...

Goat as CEO of Eclipse:

Today we have a Provisional TC.
It's granted, via Executive Order, by the FAA administrator, under duress of lossing her job.

Today we have Full TC.
It's granted over the officially filed grienvances of FAA test pilots and engineers.

Today we have Production TC.
We had to have the FAA pull out some of the inspectors, and send some of our own QA inspectors home while we brought in "ringers".

Let's Celebrate.

WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"Right now, for all anybody knows, they're just Safire Aircraft Company :)"

Ken,

In case you hadnt noticed, they have around a dozen airplanes flying right now in the hands of owners. Certification is certainly important, but so far they are looking pretty real.

WT

bill e. goat said...

Goat as CEO (part 2):

Today we go public.

The investors have sunk in 1.5 $B dollars, and are breathing down our neck.

We loose money on every airplane we sell

Our customers have been waiting years for their airplanes, and will continue to wait for years.

The employee stock options are worthless.

The few airplanes we have delivered will have to be recalled.

Let's celebrate some more.

airtaximan said...

I can see Ken...

"why did he ask me THAT?"

Black Tulip said...

“Who is paid to spin?”

Ken,

It’s me. I admit it. At least it’s supposed to pay.

The coal mine I worked at for thirty years got shut down due to OSHA violations. I pouted for a while but decided to shave my beard and start a personal outreach program. I came down out of these hills to buy a sack of beans and a roll of barbed wire, and then I saw a yellowed newspaper at the village store. It promised ten dollars cash money for every entry I would write for Eclipse Aviation Critic. Getting Internet up here in the holler was a pain but the barbed wire came in handy. Thank goodness for spel, er spell check, on the computer. Now I walk two miles to the mailbox each day – uphill in each direction – but no check or cash yet. Can you hep me.

Black Tulip

Gunner said...

"Epic has yet to certify a single plane! "

That's your problem, Ken. Your glass is always half full and everyones else's is always half empty. Or, as George Carlin said, "My sh** is 'stuff'; your stuff is sh**".

Epic is a player. Get over it or die with it on your mind.

Gunner

bill e. goat said...

Don't worry Black Tulip,

Your ship is coming in! Just in time for the auction!

Vern just put your envelope in the mail (you DID know you are getting paid in Eclipse Dollars, didn't you? (Sort of like the Eclipse TC- some would say worthless, others would say a work of ,um, "art").

EclipseOwner387 said...

Let's all chip in and buy an Epic LT. If we all work together it will be ready to go in just a few months! After it is done I will pay a 20% premium to take it off all your hands and sell it for 40% more. Thank you very much!

airsafetyman said...

Odd that no one at the FAA web site has revised the TCDS to indicate that the Eclipse Company has a Production Certificate; the TCDS still indicates that each individual aircraft must be signed off by FAA inspectors. I was looking to see what the life limits on the aircraft were and the Eclipse TCDS doesn't even address the issue. Strange, to say the least.

Gunner said...

EO-
If you're doing the selling, forget the Group Buy....I'M doing the buying!
Gunner

bill e. goat said...

EO,
I would like to start a shuttle service to the under-served hillside Black Tulip lives on.

Can you help me arrange financing for, oh, say 1400 airplanes?

I don't quite have my algorithms set up yet, but I promise to buy a calculator real soon (I think I need another $50M in venture capital to set up infrastructure for that. Don't worry- if things go belly up, the investors can keep the calculator).

I think we got another winner here!

EclipseOwner387 said...

AirSafteyMan,

Eclipse had a press release and a formal presentation of the production certificate being awarded. I heard rumor that the FAA had to fly 39 and 40 to approve COA. I assumed since it was the new aeromods to sign off on them but I can't attest to its authenticity. SN28 (my plane) is still not showing up as registered to me yet last I checked. I closed on it July 9th. Could the FAA be that slow in updating records for ProdCerts?

redtail said...

airsafetyman said.. I was looking to see what the life limits on the aircraft were.

20,000 hours / 20,000 cycles

airtaximan said...

Ken said:

"Last year, I looked pretty seriously at the the possibility of buying the Epic Dynasty"

Why?

airsafetyman said...

Eclipseowner 387 and Redtail,

Thanks.

AlexA said...

MetalGuy,

I do not doubt that Eclipse was past due with at least one of suppliers as your post stated. That was not the point of my post. My point was the lack of credibility of the original post from someone that has a propensity for exaggeration to “get payback.” The person is willing to say anything, make up anything or twist anything because she simply did not get her way.

Imagine this “I heard today from a couple of FAA guys that Stan created tools that were defective and is responsible for multiple accidents.” If that was a real post it was obviously designed to put Stan on the defensive and cause a stampede. Stan I’m sure that you produce a good product and I have no doubt that you are proud of your accomplishments.

Interestingly enough one of the best posts, from a depositor point of view, was hotdog’s. I thought the post was insightful and leads me to believe that Eclipse is on the right track.

airtaximan said...

Ken:

In case you missed this in today's FI...

-I'm sure you'll just run out and buy one now - considering your concern was certification. The PR says its on track... so, just like your decision to fork over a deposit on an e-500...there's an Epic waiting for you, and it WILL be certified. They SAY so. Their word is at least as good as Vern's, right? Heck, better all things considered, right?

"Epic raises stakes in very light jet race"
By Jeffrey Decker

Epic Aircraft is taking steps to put its new very light jets (VLJ) in the lead of the race for certification, and the company plans to release details of its plans at next month's National Business Aviation Convention and Exhibition in Atlanta.

"Our road to certification for our entire family of aircraft is cast in concrete," says Rick Schrameck chief executive of Epic, which also builds the Epic LT single-engine turboprop.

The Victory made its first public appearance at AirVenture

He says the pending announcement is connected to the visit paid by Vijay Mallya, chief executive of India's Kingfisher Airlines. Mallya was a surprise guest of Epic's at AirVenture, where the Victory and Elite VLJs made their debuts.

Schrameck says the selection of the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW615 and PW617 turbofans to power the Victory, which made it first flight in July, also accelerates the bid for certification.

He says: "Our certification process is now moving at what I call light speed. Waiting for engine technology to catch up is not something we can afford," he says, explaining why the original engine provider Williams has been rejected.

"It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality and performance of the Williams engine. We need the higher thrust-rate sooner. Being the first certificated single-engine jet is important. First to market wins," Schrameck says.

The single-engined Victory and the Elite, with twin Williams FJ-33 engines, are available as kitplanes to be assembled in Epic's factory. There are 20 LTs in assembly now, powered by the P&WC PT6-67 turboprop, and they will this month be joined by Victory kits, and in October by the Elite.

As for certificated versions, "it is our intention to deliver four Victory jets by the end of the year, and by the first quarter of next year we'll deliver the first Elite", Schrameck says.

He adds that further engine announcements are imminent. "Actually, we're looking at a third engine vendor for our smaller turboprops. Having multiple vendors for your aircraft is probably a good thing to do."

BAM! ZONK! ZOOM! CRUSH!
- it's going to get really fun, really soon...

**Ken, it won't tke this guy 10 years to certify his plane, and they already have deliveries.

Waddayawaitingfor?

OH YEAH... "why are you looking seriously at Epic?"
-kit company
-fly-by-night, just like Sapphire
-YOU ALREADY LUST FOR THE E-500
WHY?

hummer said...

ATM
Thanks for the link on Part 135/Dayjet. You're a gentleman
and a scholar.

airtaximan said...

hummer,

what do you think?

EclipseOwner387 said...

On the topic of Epic. I am a little disappointed in the fact I sent them an email about two weeks ago inquiring about a Dynasty position. Thus far no response. I guess spam blocker could have intercepted it. I am a for real buyer - you would think they would be all over me.

I think the Dynasty looks like the best 6 place "potential" turboprop offering in the market.

AlexA said...

Ok guys, you can’t have it both ways again. When Eclipse displayed the ECJ many of you came running out of the closet and said it couldn’t happen because the PW600 family was approved for multi-engine installations only. Now Epic announces “certification is moving at light speed.” I guess you guys don’t think the limitation on the TCDS matters.

BTW the Victory published specs are impressive and appear to blow everything out of the water. Glad to see the competition heating up.

airtaximan said...

you know what I find strange about HotDog?

I ask myself:

"Why would a supplier in a whole new supply chain - where e-clips says they work closer than ever before in aviation, with their suppliers - have to spend time looking for insight and information on a (critics) BLOG?"

WHY?

airtaximan said...

alexa:

a) PW Canada says it will be so, and it will be. Anyone wishing to bet against them, I'm in.

b) the cert is in Canada - I hear they have a few high ranking government officials on the sidelines waiting to help if they have any problems ;)(kidding of course)

If they are supplying the engine, and have agreed to a timeline, I'm sure they will do it.

It's moot. Or should I say MOOSE?

EclipseOwner387 said...

ATMAN,

Ken is an early adopter of the Eclipse from what I can tell. When he made his decision to go the Eclipse route, gas prices were much lower than today and Carbon Footprint wasn't a buzzword. A low cost super high performance tank like the LT/Dynasty would be appealing to any energy/dollar/environment conserving individual. I for one feel safe in a single. Some just don't so the twin jets still have a solid future but if you feel like I - the singles are compelling. I can absolutely see why Ken would be interested if Epic makes strides. Airplane brochures are comparable to girly magazines. Several can seem attractive in their own distict way!

Ken if I got this wrong, I apologize but it is how I feel about it and assumed you see it the same way I do.

Ken Meyer said...

gunner wrote,

"Most everyone truly interested in the EA-50X is looking for facts, insight and first hand knowledge. A few are too frightened to look; a couple are actually PAID to spin."

Somebody on the blog is PAID to spin? Is that what you're trying to say with that convoluted paragraph?

Who is paid to spin?

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

alexa wrote,

"When Eclipse displayed the ECJ many of you came running out of the closet and said it couldn’t happen because the PW600 family was approved for multi-engine installations only. Now Epic announces “certification is moving at light speed.” I guess you guys don’t think the limitation on the TCDS matters."

That's right, Alex.

If Eclipse is involved in a single engine jet, the bloggers write "They can't possibly build that plane any time this century because the engine they've selected is only approved for multiengine applications."

If Epic is involved, the bloggers write, "They are on a fastrack. They'll be certified by this time next week, and it doesn't make a hoot of difference about the engine being only certified for multiengine applications."

Double standard? What double standard? :)

AlexA said...

ATM,

Quick question,
Newswire reports:
Epic Aircraft chooses PW600 family engine for its Victory VLJ
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=753828

Epic web site brochure reports:
Williams FJ33-4
http://www.epicaircraft.com/brochures/VLJ_comparison.pdf

The devil is in the details.

Ken Meyer said...

Whytech wrote,

"In case you hadnt noticed, they have around a dozen airplanes flying right now in the hands of owners. Certification is certainly important, but so far they are looking pretty real."

It's real if they have a plane flying? Okay. Eclipse had 6 flying years ago, and most of the members of this blog still predicted their demise.

Double standard? What double standard?

Ken

mouse said...

Hey Hotdog,

Don't waste your breath with mirage... Talking to him is like try to teach a pig to sing... It's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig...

He has never added anything but his childish little snipets, and his tag line of amusement... Mirage = a false vision & 00 his IQ multiplied by the number of EA-500s rolling off the line...

EclipseOwner387 said...

As part of the acceptance flight Eclipse tests Vmo. My jetprop has a "silly" redline of 172 KIAS so that will tell you what max speeds I am used to. All of a sudden the pilots on the acceptance flight point the nose over and start accelerating. The Max indicated is 275 knots. I think I saw a few more knots than that and the plane performed great. It was heart pounding to say the least. I meant to post this a while back but forgot about it until now. So far none of the planes have fallen apart on this test. Not bad for a "cheap" jet.

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"'Last year, I looked pretty seriously at the the possibility of buying the Epic Dynasty'

Why?"


Why not?

It suits my purposes. I prefer a twin, but the TBM-750 would be okay. The Epic LT/Dynasty has comparable performance at a more realistic price.

Remember our whole discussion about how Socata is artificially inflating their price by holding production back? Remember how many Eclipse haters poo-poo'd my theory? Remember one particularlhy loud maroon accused me of saying there was a conspiracy?

Well, here you have it--a very similar plane produced by a manufacturer who is not of a mindset to inflate its price. And of course the plane comes in at a lot less money.

But I'm sure gunner is right..."It's all a big conspiracy."

Double standard? What double standard?

Ken

Metal Guy said...

Alexa,

Ok, I may have missed your point. The posts are fast and furious, so I may have skimmed too quickly.

Other than frustration with continued misses in production schedule and volumes, I doubt there are any huge underlying issues with the vendor base. Nothing I have heard of at least.

Saw the Epic Victory at Oshkosh. Wow. Nice looking aircraft.

mouse said...

EO387,

Just for the record, the rank and file employees are treated worse than many south of the border companies. Most have had to work 6 days a week, 10-12 hour days for months on end. The schedule has been shifted sometimes as much as 3 times in a month. Many have not taken vacation time (intimidated into staying and working), Etc.

Those who were given stock all now realize it is so diluted it might cost them to give it up (a joke!).

Customers and employees are treated like crap by the Eclipse executives. They want your order, deposit or man/hours (OK, person/hours) and that is it.

Vern started out with the right dream and goal, but he did the worst thing anyone can allow themselves to do, he believed his own Bullshit and now they are where they are.

Once you dig a deep enough hole, no amount of digging will get you out. The grand canyon may soon meet the rio grande right under the Pasao del norte bridge...

mouse said...

Hey Ken,

Maybe you're on to something.. a merger between Epic and Eclipse!

Eclipse has certified, but hasn't built a plane and Epic has built planes but hasn't yet certified... The perfect marriage, and you want an Epic too...

Ask Epic for their planned production numbers and see how wild it is (a hint, it isn't a big number because big numbers can't be supported)...

EclipseOwner387 said...

Mouse,

We live in the United States. We thrive on capitalism. I feel bad that option/stock holders may not get rich. I have had to see that happen in other start ups around me and involving me. The question that remains: was it good intentions or corruption? I think you bring up a good point. Should companies be allowed to entice employees to work for lower wages and harsher environments for potential stock riches. I don't have the answer. This is a societal and political issue. I have been fortunate enough to be involved in stock options/equity that helped some get ahead. How would they feel if they worked their asses off and now have worthless paper? I don't know. In other deals I was involved that went south they seemed to take it with the territory. Perhaps the accredited investor rules should apply for employees being granted options/shares of private companies. That would take away the American dream for many hardworking cash strapped people. I don't know. The big question is: Was the road paved with good intentions?

But most importantly, if they are unhappy they should use their feet. Vendors nor employees should stay around if they can't tolerate the environment. That is the other beauty of working in the US. We do have choice.

Mouse, this issue may be bigger than Eclipse or Vern.

Another tidbit:

UPS is one of the biggest employers in my state. They are praised by the state. But yet I find a UPS basher (employee/contractor) without even trying. Don't you think some of this is just the nature of being in business?

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WhyTech said...

Ken said:

"It's real if they have a plane flying? Okay. Eclipse had 6 flying years ago"

Ken,

You missed the part about "in the hands of owners."

WT

redtail said...

Eclipse jet auction now bid over factory list price.

Current bid: $1,733,945.00
Bids placed: 7
No of bidders: 4

WhyTech said...

"As for certificated versions, "it is our intention to deliver four Victory jets by the end of the year, and by the first quarter of next year we'll deliver the first Elite", Schrameck says."

Seems really ambitious, and Epic could succumb the same hubris that brought E-clips down. But, premature to make that call. If they get certified in any less than four years after the anncounced date, they will have done better than E-clips.

WT

bill e. goat said...

I have become fed up with the façade of the “American Dream” cliché, while we as citizens have allowed that proposition to be steadily degraded through our own inaction, apathy, and self-interest during the past 25 years.

“We live in the United States. We thrive on capitalism”.

Goat:
Um, who is “we”? The US has lagging social mobility compared to the so-called “socialist” states of Europe, and the disparity of wealth has been steadily widening for 40 years. We are on the road to becoming more like Mexico than Europe. But we have capitalism? So does Mexico. And political corruption and manipulation (uh, can you say FAA).

“The question that remains: was it good intentions or corruption?” (The stock option carrot for Eclipse workers).

Goat:
Mostly, incompetence.

“That would take away the American dream for many hardworking cash strapped people. I don't know.

Goat:
The American dream for most people? Keep your job from going to Mexico or overseas… (where did Vern send wings? Buy fuselage components, engines?)

“Vendors nor employees should stay around if they can't tolerate the environment. That is the other beauty of working in the US. We do have choice”.

Goat:
Just like Mexico.

“UPS is one of the biggest employers in my state. They are praised by the state. But yet I find a UPS basher (employee/contractor) without even trying. Don't you think some of this is just the nature of being in business?”

Goat:
No. In any given local, query a FedEx worker and a UPS worker back-to-back.

Gunner said...

Dunno what set The Faithful off on this little feeding frenzy after a day of reasonable silence; but it seems to coincide with the appearance of a vendor who confirms that problems at Eclipse and with Le Petit. Truth hurts, I guess.

"But most importantly, if they are unhappy they should use their feet. Vendors nor employees should stay around if they can't tolerate the environment."

Persactly. And, when you listen to insiders like Mouse and Hotdog, you hear confirmation that just such a talent drain has occurred in ABQ. I'm certain they still have skilled and talented people there; but they seem to be filling in with 12 week wonders and automotive industry guys.
Gunner

WhyTech said...

EO said:

"That would take away the American dream for many hardworking cash strapped people. "

The other American dream is winning the lottery. While the odds of options paying off are somewhat better, its still a very long shot - no more than 1 in 1000 startup companies reach the point where employee options equal serious money. Most rank and file employees dont understand how unlikley it is that their options will be in the money. Hope springs eternal.

WT

airtaximan said...

Ken... on EPIC/Socata and pricing (AGAIN)
you said :
"Well, here you have it--a very similar plane produced by a manufacturer who is not of a mindset to inflate its price. And of course the plane comes in at a lot less money."

Ken, Ken... some folks like a barnd name, some don't... some people like their planes made in western europe, some eastern europe is OK. Some like a track record, some don't care. Some companies like to make fewer planes and that's how they choose to deal with risks associated with peaks and valleys and economic cycles, other just say they'll produce as many planes as possible as fasst as possible, and the pricing reflects this.

They are all choices.

Epic and e-clips are not Soctata, Cessna etc... Cessna and Socata do well, producing a plane that is priced based on their business models and volume production. Epic's plans might be to make more and try to charge less. E-clip's plan is...

Does it work? Has it worked?
Cessna and Socata seem to.

Shame on you for continuing to try to fit your round-peg ideas into square-holes.

No one is over-charging, and Epics business model and pricing model (unproven) do not justify you stating anyone else over prices their planes.

Maybe you don't like the price, but they do have happy customers who are paying what you condsider to be "the wrong price" all day long.

Ken Meyer said...

gunner wrote,

"Most everyone truly interested in the EA-50X is looking for facts, insight and first hand knowledge. A few are too frightened to look; a couple are actually PAID to spin."

Somebody on the blog is PAID to spin? Is that what you're trying to say with that convoluted paragraph?

Who is paid to spin?

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"Cessna and Socata do well, producing a plane that is priced based on their business models"

Of course they sell based on their business models. And their model is to provide aircraft at a slower rate than the market can fully absorb in order to keep the pricing strong.

It's not a "conspiracy" as some overly imaginative blogger suggested. It's just normal business practice utilizing supply and demand to adjust pricing.

Companies price their products in any number of ways. Eclipse decided to price their product based on actual cost. Others have decided to base their product based on the highest price the market can sustain and control production to support that pricing policy.

There's nothing wrong with doing that, and I'm not suggesting there is. But the fact is that's what they're doing. You validated that yourself when you observed that there is a multi-year backlog for Cessna products. Combine that with the obviously high profit margin and the conclusion is self-evident: the company produces at a rate appropriate to support its pricing.

That's good for them, but bad for those of us buying planes. Buyers are better off with a company utilizing a pricing methodology that lowers rather than raises pricing. Eclipse is such a company, and their pricing policy is one reason the dinosaurs are bent out of shape about them.

Ken

Stan Blankenship said...

Thanks to our enormous trade deficit and record spending deficits, the value of the U.S. dollar has taken a huge beating against the euro.

Any European or Japanese made product is going to be expensive when compared to a similar made U.S. product.

In an interview with Vern a few months ago, he was asked if the weakening dollar was hurting his program due to the falling exchange rate. He said no because all of their contracts were in U$D and negotiated when the dollar was much stronger.

Of course it will be interesting when he goes to re-negotiate those contracts. His dollars won't go as far and he will probably be talking about lower production rates.

In this regard, Ken and EO387 are smart to get in early because future airplanes will need to be priced much higher.

FWIW, Airbus has a large engineering facility in Wichita. The cost for engineering hours is much less in Wichita than Europe. Even lower of course in India or Russia, but here they are getting engineers with a lot of experience.

JetProp Jockey said...

EO

After I read the article in AOPA, I sent an inquiry to Epic and got a response within 24 hours.

I had a phone conversation with the Ex-JetProp owner who is flying a LT, He has nothing but high praise for his machine - not bad from a guy who has uses a JetProp as a standard for comparison.

For those comparing the prices of an LT with a TBM, the price quoted for a non-certified, owner built aircraft, includes a factory certified used PT6 (Evidently the average is 1500 to 1800 hours). You can use a new one, but the price is considerably higher.

EclipseOwner387 said...

JJ,

Thanks. I would go the experimental route but I just don't have that much time to dedicate to it. If one was built in the aftermarket for reasonable price I would probably snag it. I am definitley interested in a Dynasty position.

fred said...

ken ...

in your last post , you try to compare two bizzmodel having nothing in common ...!

so , for you , eclipse has a more sensible way of doing theirs bizz ??

it just doesn't work !!!

if a surgeon open a private clinic 50 meters from yours and spread words-of-mouth his proces are much lower than yours because he doesn't need to have 6 sport-cars , 3 planes , 4 houses , 5 mistress , a personnal secretary that would make a monk wanting to burn in hell ... (i am not saying surgeons do this stuff , but you got my point ??)

what would be YOUR reaction ?

you would probably be right by saying something like "how long has he been in bizz ?" or "what's point to study so many years and get so may years experience not to make big money about it ?"

you could as well say "we will see who's gonna stay in the bizz the longest ..."

any bizz is quite the same on this topic ...

the difference in between a firm existing for the last 80 years and REALLY producing aircrafts ...

and

a startup dreaming to revolutionize the market and producing NOTHING YET they promised ....

= the price difference !!

think of it , when you pay your inssurance , would you pay more and be protected whatever happen ???

or

just pay the legal minimum and have nothing to say in case of whatever ??

the difference lies there !!

i am not saying E500 is bad , just theirs bizz-practices stink !

peoples working in EA on the production floor are very likely to be good guys , but exactly like in Enron , the boss-level of personns seems not to have feet on the ground ...

so to compare two things as different as Bush and Cleverness , you push the cork a little too far ...

fred said...

stan ...

do you have an idea of overall US debts in the 20/25 yeras range ??

(last time i talk with a us collegues on this topic , the guy went just crazy with the numbers ....!)

EclipseOwner387 said...

FlightAware update:

Four EA50's are either in flight or planned to fly today. N705PT and three DJ's.

airtaximan said...

Ken:

I think you get what you pay for.
- all things considered, I do not think E-clips is better value, just cheaper.

I'm not stating this to be the absolute case, just my opinion, all things considered.

- and YES, if Cessna wanted to lower the price, and take on "added risk" associated with ramping up and cranking out planes according to Vern-world projections, they could probably lower the price to hurt e-clips.

I think the low introductory price(s) and projected high production volume are fantasy" and only Vern and his constant stream of cash infusions can keep this mess going.

Eventually, you will be at 200-300 planes per year max, at $2.x... and at that, there are a lot of "value-based" choices that will swing another manufacturer's way.

To stave off this reality, you have the con-jet. $600-$700k or so.... as a reason to raise more money... play a little longer in the sandbox.

Just my opinion.

WhyTech said...

EO said:

" I would go the experimental route but I just don't have that much time to dedicate to it."

You might be pleasantly surprised by the time requirements. The LT is actually built in the Epic factory, and I am told that the owner / "builder" basically makes a few guest appearances and gets his picture taken turning some screws. Apparently the FAA believes that this is safer than having the owner do most of the work himself, in his garage.

Probably not literally quite this easy, but certainly not the 10 year project that many homebuilts are. The airplane feature in AOPA was around a year start to finish.

WT

EclipseOwner387 said...

WT,

About 10 months ago I was looking seriously at the LT. We were in discussions through my pro pilot with some french sounding lady there. I was going to send him out there and use the "factory" option. They said he would need to be there 3 months. I guess it could have changed but I was pretty close to buying an LT slot and decided that was too much work.

Stan Blankenship said...

fred,

Don't know the current debt numbers and don't want to know. I like to sleep at night.

Also don't know how much every man, woman and child in the US owes China since they hold so much of our paper.

We do like shoping at Wal-Mart and love those low low prices.

And my main customer Gulfstream, can't make the $40m G-V's fast enough or plush enough for the US executives to travel to the Orient to check on their low cost suppliers.

It is certainly good for my business and puts some coins in my jeans so that I too, can shop at Wal-Mart.

Welcome to the New World Economy.

Ken Meyer said...

EO387 wrote,

"I am definitley interested in a Dynasty position."

I can see why, when you compare the Dynasty figures to a TBM 850:

Epic carries more (1350 lbs with full fuel vs 849 lbs with full fuel for the TBM).

Epic goes farther (1550 vs 1520 nm at economy cruise)

Epic has wider, longer and higher cabin.

Epic has glass cockpit; TBM is still populated with steam gauges.

Epic is faster (340 KTAS vs 320 KTAS for the TBM 850)

Epic is less expensive (1.95M vs $2.8M).

Ken

JetProp Jockey said...

WT

I talked to the owner of the plane featured in the AOPA article. He made about 12 or 13 trips to the factory for an average of 3 days per trip and really did the work.

You can hire someone to do this on your behalf.

BCT said...

I guess I should buy an Epic and get; acceptable insurance rates and coverage, standard financing, training at Flight Safety, serviced at one of the factory service centers around the country and fly off into the sunset by next weekend. Oh wait... you can't do any of that.

Comparing a company with a proof of concept airplane, some homebuilts and a cool brochure to an established manufacturer is silly.


BCT

EclipseOwner387 said...

BCT,

I am self insured, pay a pro pilot to fly it, pay only cash for my toys, and fix the plane myself since I built it.

;-)

But you are absolulty correct. A TBM 700/850 in its current state has other value propositions that you need to take into account.

Down the road though - the Epic Dynasty may meet or exceed these other things and then you will have a true total ownership comparison.

airtaximan said...

BCT,

"Comparing a company with a proof of concept airplane, some homebuilts and a cool brochure to an established manufacturer is silly."

Epic or E-clips?
;)

WhyTech said...

JPJ said:

"He made about 12 or 13 trips to the factory for an average of 3 days per trip and really did the work."

Thats about 300-400 man hours (12 trips x 3 days x 10 hours/day), or, in very round numbers, one man month. Remember that the E-clips estimate for just FSW labor savings alone was 1000 man hours.

Doesnt that seem a bit optimistic to build most of a high performance pressurized turboprop? I know the owner and he certainly did the work he claims - but I would guess that this is a relatively small part of the total manhours that went into the acft.

WT

andy said...

I was going to buy/build a Lancair it seems like a great plane.
That is until a good friend of my died in his kitplane.
I will never know the cause of the spin in.
I decided then that I never want to be a test pilot I will stick with certified thanks

bill e. goat said...

News on CNN at noon today:

US congress threatens tariffs on Chinese goods due to trade imbalance.

China responds with threat to flood the currency market $400B in US notes.

Stan Blankenship said...

goat,

Wait until after the olympics and they tell the administration to butt out (a term goats understand), they're re-claiming Taiwan.

cj3driver said...

Ken said;

“… Others have decided to base their product based on the highest price the market can sustain and control production to support that pricing policy. … But the fact is that's what they're doing. You validated that yourself when you observed that there is a multi-year backlog for Cessna products…”

Ken,

… And the backlog for an Eclipse product is ... ? and the current pricing is … ?


The fact is the E500 is worth $1.75 million in today’s market (plus “Eclipse Dollars”). This will be validated in less than 36 hours. There IS a 3 year backlog for an Eclipse. Supply meets demand at a certain price. I don’t see a difference in market strategy between the two companies. I see a potential business model failure in one of the companies. Eclipse. Eclipse positions are selling for LESS than factory pricing... and Eclipse has announced another price increase of $75,000.

By self admission, Eclipse needs volume to make a profit at this price. The question is, is there a volume market for this product? IMO the next 6-12 months will validate the volume market is not there. At least not at $2 million. In addition, Eclipses still must be able to finish the product, make good on the IOU’s, ramp up production and say solvent.

I do believe the goal at Eclipse is to make a profit. Vern believes it can make a profit with volume. Cessna, Gulfstream, Socata, Piper, Embraer, Honda ... apparently don’t think so. We will see.

All eyes are on DayJet. DayJet is Eclipses largest customer (1400 orders). If DayJet fails, I believe you will see Eclipse revert to the Dinosaur practice of building to meet historic demand for this type of product.

fred said...

stan ...

great wonderfull answer ..., i do like it a lot ...!

whenever you pop-in paris , frankfurt or moscow , drop me a line , i'll invite you for a fine diner ....!

but you're right , it's better not to know .... at certain levels numbers start to ridiculousy says nothing anymore ....!

billy.e.goat , just for your fun ...

if the chineese put on the market 400Billions US$ , they wil still have something around 3 trillions in US banknote cash reserve ....!!!

Ken Meyer said...

AT wrote,

"I don’t see a difference in market strategy between the two companies."

That's ok, but I would respectfully suggest that a blind man could see it with a cane.

Cessna has not ramped up production any higher than it is because they don't want to, not because they cannot. Their market strategy is to keep supply below demand. They can (and do) charge more that way.

Eclipse is ramping up as quickly as is humanly possible. Their market strategy is to produce to match demand in order to deliver lots of planes and to keep the prices lower. From the standpoint of an aircraft purchaser, that's a better strategy because you get more for your money.

There are many reasons why the Eclipse costs less than other aircraft. Production strategy and its effect on pricing is merely one of them. But the end result of all those reasons is....

Value Proposition

:)

Ken

Stan Blankenship said...

fred,

Last year I made two trips to Europe, my wife three. This year zero for both of us.

Due to the poor exchange rate, we will be traveling in this hemisphere for the foreseeable future, but thank you for your kind invitation.

cj3driver said...

The context and quote, Ken, is:

"Supply meets demand at a certain price. I don’t see a difference in market strategy between the two companies."

The point ...In this context ... is that Eclipse is producing planes at a higher volume to meet it's demand (3 year backlog) the same way Cessna is producing to meet its backlog (3 years) to meet it's demand at a lower volume.

Both companies have the same amount of time to fill the backlog.

sparky said...

Ken,

Talk about a blind man with a cane....

If cessna were to ramp up production and complete the current three year backlog in the remaining months of this year(I know this can't be done...it's a hypothetical statement) what do you think the workers would do next?..........

It's not artificialy elevating the price, it's sound market practice.

If you think eclipse can sustain even 700 aircraft per year for very long.....

Black Tulip said...

Ken,

Any company serves three constituents:

Customers

Employees

Shareholders

A successful company is careful to strike a reasonable balance between the potentially conflicting needs of these three groups. For instance, overcompensating employees would result in higher customer prices and lower investor returns.

That is not to say successful companies cannot pursue the ‘value proposition’; Wal-mart is a good example. You imply that the very attractive pricing of the Eclipse 500 goes far beyond a ‘bargain’ and is nearly a ‘giveaway’ price for a twin jet. You also suggest that this may only be an ‘introductory’ price and (after you have received yours) prices may have to go up

You need a healthy viable company to maintain and sustain the value of your Eclipse 500. Bending too far in the customer’s direction will hurt employees, shareholders…and ultimately customers.

Alternatively, you propose that other companies can and should sell their products for much less. You suggest that the established manufacturers ration their products like a diamond cartel and extract usurious profits in the process. Where do these profits go? They don’t appear in the annual reports. Long-respected ‘dinosaurs’ have struggled and changed hands – Learjet, Beech, Cessna, Piper and others.

To date, who has benefited from Eclipse Aviation’s pricing strategy:

Customers?

Employees?

Shareholders?

Black Tulip

Gunner said...

I see we've returned to The Conspiracy of Limited Production. All the dinosaurs leave unmet demand on the table. Vern recognized the Achilles Heel of these companies and shrewdly positioned himself to meet that demand.

One has to believe this (and the concept that demand for the EA-50X is virtually unlimited) in order to buy off on the price structure.

The alternative explanation was stated, in black and white, just yesterday by a Vendor who is apparently in the know and quite supportive of Eclipse:
"This is a cheap jet and you get what you pay for"

Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

...that witticism comes from the very man who told us yesterday that someone is being PAID to spin on the forum!

Who is being paid to spin, Rich?

I'm reminded that you told us Friction Stir Welding isn't used for much in the Eclipse. Only it turned it there are actually hundreds of feet of it in the plane!

You're a nice guy, but what you write is just plain wrong a lot of the time.

Ken

Gunner said...

Yugo owners apparently don't like it when you poke fun at their ride.

Chill, Ken. You're starting to look hypoxic...or apoplectic; but, then, I repeat myself. ;-)

If some of the ABQ crowd here get greater rewards from Eclipse than you do, don't blame it on me. Talk to Vern.

Gunner

sparky said...

Ken wrote:

"Only it turned it there are actually hundreds of feet of it in the plane!"

That statement alone tells us nothing. hudreds of feet...How many linear feet of material is riveted vs FSW ken. Unless you can compare the two, giving us the stats of one is utterly worthless. But then again, it probably wouldn't suite your argument and so is ignored.

redtail said...

Gunner said... Yugo owners apparently don't like it when you poke fun at their ride. Chill, Ken. You're starting to look hypoxic...or apoplectic; but, then, I repeat myself. ;-)

Every time the truth comes out about Gunner he brings up Moller, Yugos, sarcasm, or personal attacks. Not much substance, lots of false statements.

Gunner said...

Lots of "false" statements? That's a pretty harsh accusation, coming from someone in a crowd that has charged:

- The D-Jet suffers from compressor stalls, but I can't tell you how I know (Alexa)

- The BC&A numbers were wrong (fudged?) in favor of Mustang and against the EA-50X, but I can't tell you how I know the "real" numbers (Ken)

- Diamond is actively trying to sell SN-5?, but I can't tell you who I spoke to at Oshkosh (Ken)

- The dinosaurs actively limit production in order to sell less and make more, but we need to ignore the fact that Eclipse's claimed backlog is far greater than Cessna's. (Ken)

My statements as to the quality of the Eclipse have been born out by vendors and former employees("you get what you pay for"; my statements as to Eclipse being a slow-pay type have been corroborated by others right here.

I apologize if this hurts you, redtail. Nobody said it was gonna be easy, ya know? You guys really need to provide a much better double standard to play with adults.
Gunner

Ken Meyer said...

Rich, I think you are, ahem, being purposely inaccurate:

"The BC&A numbers were wrong (fudged?) in favor of Mustang and against the EA-50X, but I can't tell you how I know the "real" numbers (Ken)"

I can tell you how I know the numbers. I already told you. I'll tell you again right now: I read the frickin' manuals. Probably, you could, too :)

" Diamond is actively trying to sell SN-5?, but I can't tell you who I spoke to at Oshkosh (Ken)"

Hey, guy; that's what they offered me--serial number 50-something. And I certainly can tell you who I spoke to at Oshkosh. I got an email from him just a couple of days ago.

"The dinosaurs actively limit production in order to sell less and make more, but we need to ignore the fact that Eclipse's claimed backlog is far greater than Cessna's. (Ken)"

The dinosaurs didn't just start production a few months ago. Eclipse is cranking up as fast as humanly possible. If Eclipse decides not to crank up any higher than the current rate with a 3-year backlog, then of course we'd say they're holding back.

Why shouldn't we make the same observation for Cessna? They're holding back; they're entitled to do it, and I don't blame them (nor did I ever say it was a "conspiracy"--you made that one up). Every business decides whether to price lower and sell more or price higher and sell less. Duh!

I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you could make a better effort to stick to the facts. But you'd prefer to keep telling us that Friction Stir Welding isn't actually used much in the Eclipse or that someone is being PAID to spin their comments in favor of the company :)

Ken

Gunner said...

We'll give you the last word, Ken. I know that's far more important to you than me.

Go for it. Then on to the topic at hand, OK? Yugos and EA-50X's.
Gunner

planet-ex said...

ken wrote:
Cessna has not ramped up production any higher than it is because they don't want to, not because they cannot. Their market strategy is to keep supply below demand. They can (and do) charge more that way.


Ken, that has to be the most rediculous statement to be posted on this blog. Would you care to provide any facts to substantiate this claim? If that was the case, why is Cessna's profit margin for 2006 only 16%?

As for the Mustang vs. Eclipse comparison you love to make so much, there's quite a few more pounds on aluminum in the Mustang. Face it Ken, the Eclipse is a jet built on the cheap with that cheap price coming from a high production volume (which they haven't reached yet). At present, I wonder how much of a loss Eclipse is accruing on each Eclipse produced this year? It has to be significant considering their fixed costs and low production volume.

gadfly said...

A little humor before the weekend?

Years ago, the Bell group licensed an Italian firm to manufacture their “helicopters”. The question was, “Which were made in Italy?

Easy answer: When an Italian helio-ca-peter went over, you could hear the sound of the main rotor (Wop-wop-wop!) and the tail rotor (Guinea, guinea, guinea!)

Alright?

Now, back to your corners, and come out fighting!

gadfly

(Yugo station wagon . . . “Y, All Go” . . . “Last word”? . . . never heard of such a dumb statement . . . some one who never got married . . . mumble, mumble, mumble . . . 16% profit margin . . . not bad.)

sparky said...

ken writes:

"I can tell you how I know the numbers. I already told you. I'll tell you again right now: I read the frickin' manuals. Probably, you could, too :)"

You might want to go backe a read them again, s-l-o-w-l-y this time. Every time you do the math it omes out skewed. You quote better stats than eclipse does.

cj3driver said...

Ken said;

“… Every business decides whether to price lower and sell more or price higher and sell less. Duh! … “

Ken,

It goes without saying, … but, …. there is a bottom.

How many more CJ3’s do you think Cessna would sell they lowered the price of the CJ3 by 16% (their entire profit margin) bringing the base to $6,500,0000 How about if Cessna lowered the price of the Mustang to $2.5 mil?

The truth is, the sales volume will not change that much. Why? The Phenom 300 will be available for $6.8 million the 100 for 3.2, the Honda for $3.6, the Eclipse for $2 million, …on and on.

Have you been to the Cessna factories? I assure you they are building CJ’s and Mustangs as “fast as humanly possible”. Unless they build a new plant, paint facilities, training sims and on and on, they cant build them any faster.

Same as TBM, Diamond, Eclipse, … everyone with a backlog.

I can tell you since the first of the year, Cessna has sold 50 CJ3’s, about 7 per month. They are currently producing 8 per month. It takes 9 months to order, spec and produce a CJ3. So, in effect they are selling this model just about as fast as they can produce them. A nice equilibrium. Supply meets demand. In a year Cessna will have a stable build/sell rate. They make a profit, customers are happy… Value meets Price.

Similar story with the Mustang. Current sales are slightly lower than anticipated build rate. Cessna says they have sold about 80 units since the first of the year. Ultimate build rate should be 150 per year.

Eclipse, on the other hand, has definitely NOT sold over 500 units this year. In fact, I would bet there have been double or triple the number of sales in the secondary market (than factory sales) and even still that number is not near the anticipated build/sell rate per year.

If Eclipse is somehow able to sell and produce 2,000 planes in the first few years, the market will be flooded with resales after this time. Historically, 5% - 10% of a particular model of aircraft is on the used market at a given time. If Eclipse production is successful, there will be potentially hundreds of Eclipse’s on the market after a few years. I will venture to say, there is not a market in the hundreds now … or later for used Eclipses.

Bottom line. Without airtaxis, Eclipse will have to shift gears and … as you say…

“raise the price higher and sell less” – Duh!

gadfly said...

Every new product needs a “catchy name”.

Eclipse? . . . ‘somehow doesn’t cut it. ‘Gives the impression that the “lights are out” . . . something about to go dark. Eclipse 500? . . . seems to be “half” of something.

The founder came out of the computer industry. So how ‘bout something that can’t quite be nailed down . . . ‘like “Vapor Ware”? That’s it: The “Vapor Light Jet”! I like that. It has an “ethereal” sense . . . and it fits right in with the “sales” promotions. Every time someone attempts to pin down the claims, it seems to “vanish” into the atmosphere . . . and about as difficult to pin down as, well, “Vapor”!

No, we need to yet refine the name “just a tad”. Let’s call it the “Vapor Like Jet”.

Oh yes, I like that a lot. One flew over this morning. Later, the cumulonimbus moved in, and like a “vapor”, the little jet was not to be seen again.

gadfly

(Me serious? Are you serious? Yes, I’m serious, but don’t take me seriously, or you’ll be seriously disappointed.)

(And, no, the "Duh" version has to wait until the first version is finished.)

Gunner said...

CJ3-
Well done. Now for the corrallary to your statement. "Bottom line. Without airtaxis, Eclipse will have to shift gears and … as you say…

“raise the price higher and sell less” – Duh!
"

At $2.3MM per copy, how many do we think they'll sell with the Mustang sitting just over them at price? OK,OK, OK....let's remember "cost of operation" or, KenSpeak, "fuel expense". Even correcting for the "wrong BC&A numbers that "didn't fit" Ken's view of the world; how many more will Eclipse sell than Cessna? The Faithful have, in past, touted 10X.

10X? I doubt.

How about the EA-50X at $2.2MM or $2.1MM, given what Cessna is already offering and what Epic has a real good shot at hitting right in the price guts.

Fact is, this is a conventionally designed jet, with conventional fuel consumption for its weight, with conventional weight limitations for its size...offered by a conventional (though bottom feeder), one horse start-up.

There's no magic here. For The Faithful's dreams to come true, however, we need to suspend all reality checks and agree to one or more flights of pure fantasy. Take your pick, cuz they've proposed them ALL at one time or another:
- Friction stir
- Unmet demand
- Dinosaur mentality
- Revolutionary design
- Vern Raburn at the helm

You simply have to buy off on one of these in order to avoid the inevitable conclusion that, given today's technology and demand, a certified, fully functional, twin engine, entry level jet will cost you north of $2mm. And a WELL BUILT sample will cost you significantly north of that number. And THAT, my friend, puts Le Petit into a world of competition.

Cessna knows this, Embraer knows it, Honda knows it, Epic knows it; even the SE Jet providers know it.

Only The Faithful deny it. But, as Hotdog said, before The Faithful ran his butt out of here for heresy, "You get what you pay for."
Gunner

airtaximan said...

Ken:
"Why shouldn't we make the same observation for Cessna? They're holding back;"

get it through your thick head - Cessna never said they were producing planes in the quantities that might make them affordable for you. why blame them for their successful business and product, together with a pricing model that works.

I know Ken, you'd rather blame them than e-clips... but you manever see your e-clips, and they may just fail - they are trying something unproven, and something that makes no sense to practically everyone... except you who would like to impose the same BS economics and pricing tactics on Cessna.

You should probably learn from Cessna, they KNW WHAT THEY ARE DOING - E-CLIPS DOES NOT.

cj3driver said...

Gunner,

I’ll add one more to that line of thinking.

I would venture to say that the majority of Eclipse sales were done at the original low price of $995K. Now Eclipse must build these units for the faithful (investors) who have plenty of equity. Those first hundreds of units (owners) have a much lower basis than the cost. When they get tired of the Eclipse and want to move up (or down) their cost basis in the relatively new aircraft is way, way lower than cost of new. This will prove a major thorn for Eclipse, if those customers need to sell in the future. Since the cost basis is so low, they (early purchasers) can discount the aircraft to make a sale and still not take a loss. This is true with not just the owner/operators but the air taxis as well. If the business case (air taxi) doesn’t materialize or work …. Just sell the plane.

Not a pretty sight with 3 planes per day coming off the assembly line. …Even with 2 per … even at 1 per day. …. Mr. DeLorean would vouch for that one.

bill e. goat said...

If we can't solve the mystery of Eclipse's finance, I'll tackle something a bit easier- global politics (not quite up for the politics here though :)

Stan,

I think Taiwan will probably be presented with a carrot/stick offer. Probably some sort of Hong-Kong-ization. I imagine China will want to "capitalize" (so to speak) on the industrial partnerships that Taiwan has developed, so despite the bluster, it probably won’t be overtly hostile- it's a big carrot (and a big stick).

Maybe I'm just using wishful thinking.
---------------------------

When China rammed the Navy EP-3 back in 2001 and interned the crew for almost two weeks, Bush had an interesting challenge and unique opportunity to demonstrate innovation and creativity. I would not have wanted that "opportunity".

But his response was about the same as when he was reading the book to the kindergarten children during 9/11- he just sat there waiting for someone to tell him what to do. Except he just sat there for an agonizing 11 days instead of 7 minutes.

Navy P3 Rammed

Talk about us capitalists selling rope to hang ourselves...

China F8 upgrade

Gunner said...

CJ-
Honestly hadn't looked that far ahead. I actually envisioned the "fleet" as looking more like the StarShip, only with larger numbers of orphans and without the Raytheon safety net.

Looking at it from your perspective, all I can say is, "Ouch".

But you point up, I think, the major difference in Critic approach and Fathful approach. We tend to look at things more on a "macro" level...(does it pass the sniff test?); they tend to look at things more on a micro level (What is the exact fuel burn of the promised EA-50X vs the delivered Mustang at FL310?).

The micro-level analysis is important. Personally, I usually hire that talent after a deal has passed the smell test. This one simply has not.
Gunner

AlexA said...

CJ3DRIVER said “I would venture to say that the majority of Eclipse sales were done at the original low price of $995K.”

That would be called bad thinking and bad “venture.” There were approximately 165 aircraft sold under the Platinum program ($995K today’s price). It doesn’t matter which order book you believe 165 is certainly not the majority.

AlexA said...

Gunner said.. ” Personally, I usually hire that talent after a deal has passed the smell test. This one simply has not.”

You ate the whole thing and then decided to do the smell test?

Gunner said...

Alexa wrote:
"There were approximately 165 aircraft sold under the Platinum program"

Based on your extraordinary high standards for proof, documentation and veracity, why would we not call this a lie, Alexa?

Don't worry, I'll take you at your word. Of course, that looks to me like about $170 Million in losses. Losses that the funds have yet to be raised to cover. You're number is in the 300's, no?

No worries. They'll make it up on volume.

Gunner

gadfly said...

A little while ago, I made a comment, meant in "fun" and humor. It was slanted toward Italians, with whom I have worked on highly technical projects, and learned so very much . . . and was within the bounds of what would have been normal conversation . . . give and take . . . with my Italian friends.

It was brought to my attention, that someone might be offended, and I apologize for that possibility . . . I have too much respect for others of any nationality, or background, to ever degrade anyone in that manner.

But words are like birds. When they leave the mouth, or "nest", they fly wherever they will, and I cannot undo what I have said.

Please forgive me, should I have offended any of you, who have read my comments. If I "attack", it will be strictly on the basis of "opinion", and never because of background. And, in the future, I will attempt to use better judgement.

gadfly

cj3driver said...

Alexa said;

“… That would be called bad thinking and bad “venture.” There were approximately 165 aircraft sold under the Platinum program ($995K today’s price)…”

Thanks for the info Alexa.

Were the planes sold to DayJet and the other fleet operators under the same program? And at what price? How about the other programs? Other fleet deals? I see some advertised at $1,045 base with CPI and also some at $1,075 base with CPI. … and others. Or, do you think the majority are at 1,520,000 with CPI?

I really don’t know. I’m just going by what I see on controller and on Mike Press’s website, and the serial numbers are in the 400+.

Gunner said...

Gad-
Just went off line to check email. It turned out to be on this subject and I guess I might be the subject of your apology.

Here was my response, before seeing your post here:
"Yes, it’s Eye-Talian. First generation; and his words would be fighting words, except for the source.

There isn’t a joke that’s been invented on this planet that is not at someone else’s “expense”; You could call me "[%$#*&^%$]" and I’d not take offense. It’s all in the context and intent.

No problems here."


No need for apology, Gad, though I thank the other party for his concern and you for the unnecessary apology. If any of you other WOPs, Dagos or Guineas have a problem with The Gadfly, take it up with me.
Gunner

mouse said...

Ken, you said that Eclipse prices their airplane based on cost. Do you think they have a clue what their costs are?

Hint, they don't. They never did, and they don't know. None of the cost variables have panned out, nor will they for the forseeable future. The early price was never based on a cost. Vern priced the plane to "go in a seize the market" his words, not mine. "Like the Japanese did to Detroit, we'll get a huge market share and than raise the price"... Didn't quite work that way because the plane did not get done on time or on budget.

The quantity breaks are key to the costs, and they are not making any of their forecast quantities within 1%... Engines, Wings, Tails, Avionics, Landing gear, Transparencies, everything was based on volume, and to date Eclipse has not met any of their volume rates...

airtaximan said...

anyone wish to guess at the price to Dayjet?

their deposit requirements?

their delivery position priority?

- they have 1430 of these baby's tied up you know!

cj3driver said...

Alexa,

Taking out the fleet orders, I still maintain the majority of Eclipse sales are not at $1,520,000 but at an amount less.

Therefore, I rephrase and restate:

“I venture to say the majority of sales are at LESS than the current base price plus CPI.”

I further state:

“I venture to say that the majority of sales to fleet operators are at LESS than the current base price plus CPI … and substantily less than the proposed price increase to $1,595,000.00“

Just my opinion and guess based on a compilation of public information derived from current offerings for sale, timing of press releases for past fleet orders, and information obtained in speaking with sales staff at Eclipse.

And, Alexa,

My point still stands … there will be hundreds of planes with a much lower basis than new production. Eclipse has been, …is currently … and will continue to compete for sales with a major competitor, … their own customers, … for a long time.

airtaximan said...

Ken:

you disagree with this statement: "I don’t see a difference in market strategy between the two companies."

the result in pricing and production have nothing to do with their respecive strategies, which both attempt to match a price with a market demand and then produce accordingly.

the only difference is garbage in -garbage out for e-clips seeing a market for thousands and thousands of e-500s. Cessna disagrees.

Believe it or not, the price falls from a projected market size at a price. Cessna with all their data and history do not believe the Verntastic numbers he's planned his whole business upon and priced his product accordingly.

The thought that e-clips' strategy is different than Cessnas is wrong - their data is different than Cessna's.

PS. the whole "forward pricing" BS story is just that - BS. Every manufacturer forward prices their products in aviation... just so happends none of them count on thousands and thousands for a jet.

- or was it for investors?
- or was it for unsuspecting customers?
- suppliers perhaps...
- or, was it for the FAA?
- maybe for the Collier...
- maybe for one man's ego....

...nothing in the market shows there is a market for the e-500, except Dayjet. Dayjet is a sister-company... and I might say there a wee bit of incest going on in this family, I suspect.

Gunner said...

AT said:
"Dayjet is a sister-company... and I might say there a wee bit of incest going on in this family, I suspect."

That's what you call a "handle" for Faithful Attack; watch it come as surely as we knew they'd savage Hotdog.

Not that you erred in writing it, AT. No rational being could look at DayJet's spiraling service delays and refusal to start with a dozen other aircraft models, without "sniffing" an incestuous connection.

Like I said, Critics look at the macro side, using common sense. The Faithful look at the micro side, trying to figure out which snippets of reality fit their fondest hopes and desires.

I submit, this one fails their test.
Gunner

airtaximan said...

typo:

"...nothing in the market shows there is a large enough market for the e-500, except Dayjet."


... left out "large enough"...

Gunner:

did you look at the Dayjet presentation I posted?

- there are some interesting details in that presentation...

Ken Meyer said...

mouse wrote,

"Do you think they have a clue what their costs are?...They never did, and they don't know."

Didn't you say you worked on the line, Mouse?

Maybe I'm remembering your genealology wrong, but I don't think they share that kind of financial information with disgruntled line workers.

We sure seem to have a lot of naysayers on this blog that are perfectly happy to speculate on things they're not even privvy to. Why is that?

Ken

Gunner said...

AT-
Yup, but I'm already in enough trouble for "lying" (def: refusing to the wonders seen by The Faithful).

I'm chastened and quite stunned into silence by it all. ;-)
Gunner

cj3driver said...

“Eclipse has been, …is currently … and will continue to compete for sales with a major competitor, … their own customers, … for a long time.”

IMO during the time it takes to fill the “reduced price’ orders, the outside competition, Embraer, Epic, Adams, Diamond, Honda, Cirrus and others, will be certified and in full production by then. Further, Cessna will have filled its backorders filled and probably have new product announcements/enhancements by then.

It seems Eclipse is a day late and a dollar short … make that years/millions.

gadfly said...

Gunner

Thanks!

gadfly

mouse said...

Ken, better call Fred George of BCA and talk to him about the "fudged" numbers you claimed, and They are fudged, I'm sure...

The numbers are provided by Eclipse to Fred via his worksheet. Only Eclipse provides these numbers, so Vern fudged them... Better be careful of Vern is going to make your tail red when he sues you for telling all of us how he fudges numbers...

If you don't like the results in BCA better go tell Vern because they are his numbers..

Face the facts and quit whinning...

AlexA said...

CJ3Driver,

I think you would have better odds at playing Power Ball than trying to decipher the price/cost structure of Eclipse. As stated before there were approximately 165 aircraft sold under the Platinum Program ($995Kcurrent with no CPI). A good portion of the early order book hovered around the $1,075K mark in 2000 dollars. By the time these aircrafts are delivered the price should hover around the $1.2M mark.

As to DayJet I have no idea what they are paying but it’s probably a sweet deal. On the upside I have heard from a broker that some late entrants into the air charter market paid substantial premiums to get early aircrafts.

The point is you can guess, venture, think, surmise all you want but the reality it’s a waste of time. There are probably only a handful of folks that have all the answers and those folks aren’t talking.

It was nice to see 4 E500 at RSVM levels today;)

Ken Meyer said...

mouse wrote,

"If you don't like the results in BCA better go tell Vern because they are his numbers..

Face the facts and quit whinning... "


You meant "whining," right? Eclipse buyers are already "winning" :)

The Eclipse numbers in the B&CA tables match the AFM very closely. It was the Mustang numbers that I couldn't reproduce by reference to the AFM.

The bedrock truth is that the Mustang uses 30-40% more fuel in every regime than the Eclipse--check the AFMs if you don't believe me. The cost figures between the two have to reflect that or else they're just plain wrong.

BTW, what was your position at Eclipse?

Ken

Ken Meyer said...

Alexa wrote,

"It was nice to see 4 E500 at RSVM levels today :)"

Naw, you must be wrong. Eclipse 500's can't fly in RVSM airspace. We've been told that dozens of times by the bloggers. They can't fly high; they can't fly far; their windows pop out if they go too high, and other "urban legends" promoted here.

Surely you must have read the Flightaware charts wrong. Maybe you should look again :)

Ken

mouse said...

Ken, ever wonder how much a service center costs to operate? How many planes they have to have based to break even? Wonder how they make any profit during the first few years of warranty?

Do you have any business sense or smarts at all?

At some point Eclipse better find a positive cash flow, besides selling their T-shirts and key fobs.

Build a jet = lose a little

Run a service center = lose a little

Let the employees drink too much coke = lose a little

Make color copies = lose a little

ship fedex, ups or dhl = lose a little

When you were in business did you make a profit, or were you giving away your services for free or at a loss?

Hope Phostrex brings in a few million soon... And hope you pay your 60% pretty soon... Vern needs the money to build someone elses airplane, and you should be ashamed of yourself for cheating Eclipse from their earned deposit, and shame on you for holding on to your filthy cash... You are making a profit by holding on to your money, how nasty is that!!!??

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