Friday, January 18, 2008

from across the pond

fred, our fellow blogger from Germany weighed in this morning on the ETIRC involvement with Eclipse:

i decided to call my friend in EASA to ask about cert for E500 and possibilities of having a simulator based on a plane non cert. , non finished , non funded , etc...

the answer came very straight (sorry for using such words but i want to put it the way it was said ...)

"When will you fuck-off with your joke about that piece of shit ?"

which i took for : NO , no way !;-)

apart this , some news from the russian front ...:

the city where Etirc is supposed to buid ( assemble or pretend to assemble or may assemble ) a plant for E500 production is :

Ulyanovsk or Улья́новск

which is a wonderfull thing for the simple reason i have a good pal working in the city duma (city council)

after being asked about a new firm develloped , in this city , mainly dealing with General Aviation ...

the answer came as :

"Ulyanovsk would be a strange choice ...! not very practical as an other town Воро́неж or Voronezhis actually a town where producing aircraft has a long history AND is under-going some restructuration !

in our town (Ulyanovsk ) there is a fund dealing with small and medium buisness which has priority status with federal budget ...

but a 1B US$ or a 100 M US$ bizz in the town wouldn't been considered as small or even medium bizz , it would be so huge , the city itself may want NOT to host it !

at the time being , from the city duma records , there is not a single evidence of either a russian or foreign entity undergoing such actions as paperworks , licence , land plot buying , etc , such a project would be likely to take ...!

and nowhere it has been announced such a deal was on his tracks anywhere else than in the mind or ideas of its conceptors ...!

"well i think that say enough ... in itself ...

but it would have been funny to see an American plant close to the Lenine's birth house .... ! :-))

fred also submitted a European's view of the U.S. economy with statements we are not going to hear from Bernanke, the Administration or our limp dick press. For a reality check, read fred's 2:12 am comment against the last post.


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Stan Blankenship said...


The blog is grateful for these weekly compilations and your efforts to keep us informed.

I have been looking forward to your weekly update on DayJet since it appeared as if their activity spiked last week. I use the term spike as they don't seem to be as busy this week.

While they occasionally get some longer legs, most of the flights showing up on flightaware are around 45-50 min which your data tends to support with most of the flights under FL 300.

The Florida State legislature convenes March 4, better days may be ahead.

FlightCenter said...

What is your estimate for revenue flight hours?

FlightCenter said...

Linear Air had their first flight since December 18th today.

Round trip between KBED and Nantucket. That's about 20 or 25 minutes each way.

They now have two aircraft on the line. Serial #16 and serial #75. That's less than 1 hour flying time between their two aircraft in over a month.

It was a beautiful day in New England today. 36 degrees F and sunny.

Shane Price said...


Agreed. 'Russians' are lovely people.

Just a tiny bit workshy. A tad hard to manage. Need a lot of assistance with fast moving technical subjects.


And, just so you know, the problems the Moskivites have with American tourists are nothing. What they should really worry about are Irish property developers, who are buying up the city...

The French bank I hinted at yesterday is Societe Generale, who have just announced a €4.9 Billion (that's $7.2 Billion in toy money) fraud.

Another trader who bet on the wrong horse...

So, you can imagine the discussions at the credit committee meeting, the next time ETIRC look for money.

"This Dutch guy wants to pump another $100 million into his aircraft project east of Moscow, what will I tell him?"

"What extra security can he offer?"

"Not much. The order intake is down to almost nothing, the FAA have re-issued their airworthiness directive for most of the aircraft that are in the field, the factory is still training staff to get the build rate up and other similar efforts in the US are in trouble"

"Tell him to talk to Societe Generale, they seem to have money to throw around...."


fred said...

shane ...

no , not your fault (if any)
i should have expressed myself a littke bit better ...

i should have written :

the first thing to be done with russian is to "erase" all the BS they think they know about the west ...
then "erase" all things they know for sure about habits and stuff ...

then teach them the way you want ... bearing in mind , each time they will go back in their own "little safe backyard of thinking"

your task will be to keep on pressing the red button "Delete" as many times as needed , and that for as long as needed ...!

or if you prefer a bit the same that what US marines or french foreign legion is doing : first you destroy personnal characteres then you re-build a new one suited to your needs ...

but on a much lesser way , you do not need to have thoses to die for you ... and as well more difficult to achieve because you cannot go to extrems as army would do ...

i understood you were talking about S.G. ...!
the shares prices plunged of some 20% , not really difficult to imagine the why , but to my knowledge the info you're stating hasn't been published in france ... good old infos curfew ...or simple delay ..?? who cares anyway ...!

banks are made to get profits from hopes , dreams and desperation ...!

nothing new into that ...!

it is still the "good old greed" where most think it is perfectly normal to get a high return on shares , or a high interest on saving but a very low price on credit ....!! how do you think USA got into so much troubles ? (hint = re-read the last sentence ten times ... ;-))) )

fred said...


if i read your post well about D-jet

it seems that most flights are going in a parabolic patern ?
(meanning as soon they take-off they climb then directly lower altitude for landing )

which is exactly WHAT easa thought about a project of air-taxi in the E.U. ...

and the reason why they thought the bizz-plan was not sustainable ...

too much burning rate , not enough of flight-level , too much polution , not enough time taken on schedule by lack of real speed....

fred said...

shane ...

the "thing" anout the S.G. has been released to public opinion ...

but they talk about 7 B € ....!

4.xx being the sole result of a trader who played "under-cover" the market ...

funny term "under-cover" , it is a very good way to say they didn't give a damn about what theirs employees were doing , for that all should be fired ...!

or that the controlling-structures failled , which they should remove it and persons working there should be fired ...

out of the 7 B , 2.xx is directly coming from the US Subprimes ...

which was mere greed , nothing else , so peoples who made such decisions as to risk more than a cent on a field which was stinking like dead dog right from the beginning , have to be fired as well ...

funny as well your word "toy money" ...

in french , they use an other word = " monnaie de singe " (monkey's money) :-))

so all together it is more than 10 Billions US $ or "toy money" as you wrote ...

rumors say : now every body fear that others banks are going to unveil theirs loses as well ...

like in USA , i very much doubt the truth about Subprimes is fully out yet ...!

bill e. goat said...

I’m glad you will not be hurt by the composite fad. I had not read your analysis of the 787 composite decision for a while, and will remind others who are interested in that technical arena to visit your associated blog:


Speaking of rushing off the cliff, and other premature endings:

I will leave it to others to draw conclusions of Adam’s potential demise, vis-à-vis Eclispe predatory pricing. How many customers did Eclipse suck away from Adam? Probably a good chunk of their order book. Same with Safire, with express intent, if I remember the discussions a few months back. If Eclipse folds, and moves to Russia, the worst of my suspicions is confirmed: it has been a poison to the US Aerospace industry and workers, not the “competitive boon” advocates proclaim.

“Spurred competition”?? By being kept afloat artificially, it has more spurred a race to bankruptcy, and has been an anchor to everyone else’s profits. My worst fear* is:

It has hurt “healthy” US manufacturers
It has hurt US workers
It has hurt US technology leadership

Nice airplane though? Sure. Is it a “bargain”? I think one needs to consider that term a little more closely.

*Is that fear being realized? If you ask the folks at Adam, and Safire, and other startups suffering from Eclipse artificial pricing; and in light of the ETIRC deal, I'd say: it is happening.

Plastic_Planes said...

Mr. Goat,

If you ask the folks at Adam, and Safire, and other startups suffering from Eclipse artificial pricing;

I don't really believe this played that big a role at AAI. Rick Adam didn't want to be a Vern, he had a slghtly different model for his company. Rick wanted to be a "full line" aircraft company. Aside from the A500 and A700, there were several other variants in other sizes (mostly bigger) in the company business plan. Rick never wanted to be a single model / 1000 planes per year copycat. He saw that a reasonably priced, full featured aircraft would have enough room for reasonable profits to be made. In spite of the problems, Rick sold plenty A700's. The A500 was kind of a "loss leader" into the market, but it was enough to get them (AAI) into and further the development of the A700.

Adam Aircraft suffered the same as many companies have - they started with a lot of "young" technologies and tried to build an entire company around them with little practical experience. That the company went through several key management changes in a 12 month period signified a sense of ill-bode for those involved. There were a lot of technical hurdles still to overcome to get where they needed to be.

As much as I hope they succeed, they are "at the wrong place at the wrong time" right now with the current economic climate in this country.


Shane Price said...


SG's 'subprime' €2 Billion loss is not the problem. EVERYONE has one or two of those hidden away somewhere.

The difficulty for Eclipse is the ability to raise money. The ETRIC funding is either above or below €100 million, which at their burn rate is about 3 months worth. Before the money runs out, they have to raise more.

Which brings me back to my original point.

Money is tight, and getting harder to find.


Stan Blankenship said...

Found it on another site:

In the wake of the BA038 crash, unconfirmed reports circulate British airport authorities are considering additional safety measures.

Click here.

Stan Blankenship said...


Often the short flights are not parabolic, many like DJS158, currently en route Gainsville to Penscola, 263 miles, stay low, 8,000 ft to give their passenger(s) a good view.

fred said...

stan ...

i was wondering ...

in order not to burn too much , jets have to reach altitude as fast as possible , no ?

if they do short legs , to reach this altitude , it can be a bit **# for passengers ...

or they stay low , passengers have a good view , but then burning rate is whopping , no ?

i am just asking a question , as i am very far from being experienced enough in that field....

fred said...

shane ...

i was meanning , all Banks have got to faces somes losses ...

S.G. is probably the first one to admit publicly how much they have burnt ...

the confidence crisis is the most impotant part of the story ...

i would say that by now all banks are weighing each an other to see if there is some truth in the said and stated losses ...

i wonder what are the others ones thinking ... probably a bit shy on stating how much they have burnt on theirs own ... which is not a good sign ...
(only speculation , but this is exactly where the confidence crisis starts... !)

as for Etirc raising money :

i would bet a fine diner that when they are going to make a few potential investors to seat around the table ...

most of them are going to answer :

" Money ? what about Money ?? where did you see some Money ???"

bill e. goat said...

regarding those additional British airport safety measures....
Is that the "Not In My Backyard Syndrome" in action??

(I think Van Nuys is thinking of something similar, with regards to LAX traffic :).

Stan Blankenship said...


DJS158 now en route to Ocala, 282 miles and flight planned for a little over an hour. He was briefly at 7,000 ft but now back to 5,000.

Have not checked the weather, but suspect potential icing is keeping him (or her?) down.

If the airplane could have cruised above FL 300, he could cut his fuel flow in half while cruising a third faster.

Lack of FIKI is just one more issue Ed I. must contend with.

bill e. goat said...

Hi P_P
Thanks for your post regarding Adam Aircraft- I agree with you, Rick Adam didn’t want to be Vern. Nobody wants to be Vern, except Vern. (I suspect there are times when even Vern doesn’t want to be Vern :).

Adam, Safire, etc, were hoping to follow a “non-disruptive” startup approach; design the airplane, build it, sell it. At a price that was profitable, in volumes that they could support.

I still believe Eclipse has been detrimental to their survival, but not because of product “superiority” issues.

1) Eclipse has been a huge sink for aviation investment dollars that might have been spent on other startups.

2) Eclipse has warped the customer queue for Adam, etc.
a) Selling below cost
b) Promising delivery dates that are YEARS out of sync with reality.
Adam wasn’t trying to sell thousands of airplanes. I do not know their business model, but I would suspect their goal was to sell a few dozen per year during the first couple of years.

If Eclipse by virtue of predatory pricing and lying about delivery dates managed to siphon just two dozen customers (one percent of the Eclipse “order book”), that represents maybe 50% annual revenue loss to Adam.
Does predatory pricing exist, and play a big part of company survival? Just think of how airlines treat competitive startups.

I believe this has been a deliberate part of the Eclipse marketing strategy. Selling below cost, and missing delivery schedule by years is NOT a reflection of stupidity (well, not entirely); rather, it is EXPRESSLY designed to position Eclipse as the sole supplier for VLJs by eliminating competitors with loss-leaders and twisting buyer’s perceptions of product availability.

mirage00 said...

I believe this has been a deliberate part of the Eclipse marketing strategy. Selling below cost, and missing delivery schedule by years is NOT a reflection of stupidity (well, not entirely); rather, it is EXPRESSLY designed to position Eclipse as the sole supplier for VLJs by eliminating competitors with loss-leaders and twisting buyer’s perceptions of product availability.

You just "jumped the shark"

I remain amused

double 00

airtaximan said...


When Safire was at a target of $800,000 Vern proposed the plane at "around $779,000".

Pretty funny.

Eventually, Safire seemed to learn that $1.4M or so was a reasonable price. Vern was still at around

Everyone pretty much agrees that Safire had a better plane, just not the business minds and connections for the CASH. VErn is the king, here. The "aviation money" seems to have come from the "tech" sector, so its new money... clueless money, unless you believe the "value proposition" for a cheap jet is based on some radical new tech.

- new tech tiny williams engines
- a new proprietary integrated computerized avionics suite
- Friction Stir Welding , essential to high rate robtic manuacturing


- clearly all gone, or almost all gone...

How far Safire got is unknown, but I suspect it was not even close. They were probably looking for money in all the wrong places, with the wrong emphasis on aviation instead of tech to get the money... they were making a plane that any manufacturer could make... lower risk... and therefore easier target for competition from the majors. See Mustang and Phenom... at a premium for the realities of lower volume and the recognized/trusted brands.

I imagine Vern expected that his competition would be Safire/Adam... and without them, competition would be minimal. Like Microsoft - only game in town.

But, today, everyone realizes he does not have the high rate for the low price... even if you count the friendly orders and options. There IS competition, and they priced theor planes realistically for the market and volume... plus a trusted brand premium.

Soon, Epic will take a big step forward, I suspect. They seem to have the right focus. Low cost, rapid prototyping, market feedback, partner for certification, proven systems... etc.

Can they do lower rate and lower cost, and develop a brand premium? Someone is betting $200M and he IS in aviation - this is a big deal.

Plastic_Planes said...

Adam, Safire, etc, were hoping to follow a “non-disruptive” startup approach; design the airplane, build it, sell it. At a price that was profitable, in volumes that they could support.

In a real sense, yes, but Adam couldn't make any money on the A500. Priced where it was, they lost several hundred thousand per unit. But, the A700, since it had fairly similar material and labor costs (other than the engines), actually would have made some money. Hence the A500 being a true "loss leader".

Even at the hishest rates, Adam was never planning more than 12 or so A500's per month. At those volumes, they could support a reasonable order book as well as stil make money.

I imagine Vern expected that his competition would be Safire/Adam

Vern had Jack J. Pelton in his sights. Rick Adam was rarely ever mentioned. Perhaps Vern always expected they would be gone. Vern will never feel he has accomplished his dream until he puts Cessna out of the jet business. Yeah, right. There is a true arrogance in his speech when Vern talks about Cessna. Rick, on the other hand, always felt his biggest competition would come from Brasil.

Rick Adam could be an a-hole some times, but his arrogance ended when it came time to move frward. He accepted new ideas from others when it was necessary to make change. Having sat across the table from Rick and Vern both, there are a lot of similarities (love of airplanes and a tech sector background), but the similarities end there.


bill e. goat said...


"You just "jumped the shark"

I'm not sure what that means,
but I'll take it as a compliment ?:)

(Maybe I should check with CWMOR first...)

I am willing to concede the point though, that selling below cost, and missing delivery schedule by years IS a reflection of stupidity.

Stan Blankenship said...


Wikipedia - The term jumping the shark alludes to a scene in the TV series Happy Days when the popular character Arthur "Fonzie" Fonzarelli jumps over a shark while water skiing.

The scene was so preposterous that many believed it to be an ill-conceived attempt at reviving the declining ratings of the flagging show. Since then, the phrase has become a colloquialism used by U.S. TV critics and fans to denote the point at which the characters or plot of a TV series veer into a ridiculous, out-of-the-ordinary storyline.

Such a show is typically deemed to have passed its peak. Once a show has "jumped the shark" fans sense a noticeable decline in quality or feel the show has undergone too many changes to retain its original charm.

bill e. goat said...

Thanks Stan,

"fans sense a noticeable decline in quality or feel the show has undergone too many changes to retain its original charm".

...?? Sounds more like the E-500 to me !!

-especially the part about “so preposterous that many believed it to be an ill-conceived...”


Black Tulip said...

"fans sense a noticeable decline in quality..."

It’s nothing really, only a mirage. A mirage is an optical curiosity; there is no substance.

Gunner said...

You touched on the exact issue that I was trying to convey when I stated that Adam gets a "pass" from the aviation community for its relative honesty.

We all understand the difference between marketing, hype and outright lie (though some only get it in retrospect and after blowing the better part of a million bucks). We also know just how risky aviation startups really are. Finally, I think we universally cheer for the "little guy", the startup.

Adam never stopped to Eclipse's pathological habit of untruth. Survive or fail, they are to be credited with that.

Did Eclipse hurt Adam sales? Was the pricing predatory? In both cases, I think so. We'll never know the number of Eclipse Depositors that might have jumped ship for the A-700 had they not been conned out of 60% Progress Payments with intentional lies about how far off completion of the design really was.

Should something be done about this type of predatory pricing? I think not. Aircraft manufacture is a hardball game. Besides, Darwin is alive and well in the aircraft purchase decision...he's just changed his name to Caveat Emptor.

fred said...

a report from the one likely to be the next russian president , concerning aircrafts manufacturing and a hint for the believers of "Ulyanovsk plant" (about corruption tackling in regions) as well as clearly stating WHO is deciding on WHAT is to be produced in Russia ...

from RussiaToday
"New Cargo plane to boost air industry
After years of stagnation, Russia's aviation industry is showing signs of recovery. A new cargo plane is about to go into production.

Russia's First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has visited a company producing the planes and spare parts in the central Russian city of Voronezh.

Medvedev met factory workers, handing them a certificate allowing serial production of the new IL-96 cargo plane.

The aircraft was unveiled at the MAKS-2007 air-show, where specialists gave it high praise.

All the equipment on the plane is Russian-made and, according to Medvedev, the project is on course to be a major success.

“The Voronezh factory has to work to regain its reputation as a renowned producer. There is every reason to believe that the project will be a success. The finances are there and the economic situation is favourable. Of course, there is hard work ahead as the schedule is tough but I have no doubt you will succeed,” Medvedev said.

First Deputy Prime Minister was asked by reporters whether he thought changes were needed in the way the Russian government works.

Medvedev said Russia must continue as a presidential republic with strong executive power.

He added that a strong initiative is required from the country's regions to tackle acute problems like corruption and housing."

for the ones dreaming or blind enough to see the hint :

it is presidential and Govt. privillege to allow things to be manufactured in the Russian Fed. (as to aircraft , big plant and multi-millions projects...)

if someone fiddle in some regions to "by-pass" this (as some may think , some inffluent local ones may be behind the plot ) , he will find the russian Govt. on its way ...

(i know the result , seen it before = they come to your home , take you to the closet airport and off you're gone ...!)

airsafetyman said...

"A mirage is an optical curiosity; there is no substance."

Unless it has "Dassault" stenciled on the tail; in which case it will clean your clock in a heartbeat!

Dave said...

Eclipse still has a long way to go to profitable operations. Eclipse has just reconfirmed they are not profitable and will not break even until they manufacture 600+ jets per year. To be profitable they have to manufucture and sell two jets per day based on a 30 day month:
"When a reporter observed that it seemed like a big jump to move from 20-plus aircraft a month to 650 a year, Raburn's resilient optimism resurfaced. With sufficient inventory in place, Eclipse has already demonstrated a "surge" production capacity of 1.4 aircraft per day, he said. To reach desired annual production levels Eclipse simply has to go from averaging one aircraft per day to two a day on a 30-days-per-month basis, a level he maintained is eminently possible. The manufacturer has spent much of the past year refining production processes and work flow in Albuquerque after bringing in experts in high-rate production from the automotive industry. Eclipse also has spent money to enhance tooling, Raburn said, making it more rigid and stiffer so skin panels and other components are cut and machined more precisely to reduce variability, improve the fit and make final assembly easier and faster. "We've solved that problem," Raburn said."

It's possible they might be able to get their manufacturing capacity up to a sustainable two jets per day, but that is only half the equation...they still have to sustainably find hundreds of buyers per year with bonafide orders.

flyger said...

Dave said...

Eclipse has just reconfirmed they are not profitable and will not break even until they manufacture 600+ jets per year.

Cessna, the largest and most profitable GA jet manufacturer, plans to build a total of 407 jets in 2008 and they have a payroll of 15,000 employees.

Eclipse won't be profitable until they build 1/3 more than that using 1/8 the employment work force.

Doesn't pass the sanity check.

To reach desired annual production levels Eclipse simply has to go from averaging one aircraft per day to two a day on a 30-days-per-month basis, a level he maintained is eminently possible.

You get the feeling he just changed the number in his spreadsheet and, voila, the company is profitable? All he has to do is "simply" double output!

Eclipse also has spent money to enhance tooling, Raburn said, making it more rigid and stiffer so skin panels and other components are cut and machined more precisely to reduce variability, improve the fit and make final assembly easier and faster. "We've solved that problem," Raburn said."

They spent years telling us their production design was superior, so why is there a "problem" to be solved now?

Eclipse seems to be a master at "solving" problems they previously told us they didn't have. Engine, avionics, production, where does the list end?

airtaximan said...

You get the feeling he just changed the number in his spreadsheet and, voila, the company is profitable? All he has to do is "simply" double output!

funny thing is, you are probably more right than you think - they are just finding the hack in the business plan spreadsheet, now....

Plastic_Planes said...

Cessna, the largest and most profitable GA jet manufacturer, plans to build a total of 407 jets in 2008 and they have a payroll of 15,000 employees.

Cessna also will build close to a thousand SE airplanes as well as an entire propeller business with those people. In addition, there is a big spares, aftermarket and STC business out there. Those 15,000 people aren't just building jets.


bill e. goat said...

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info regarding Eclipse and 600+ per year required for profitability.

Given the Eclipse is a single product, I can see them developing capability to build 600 per year, with maybe 2000-3000 employees, and another two years to get the design stabilized and work force hired and trained.

But the REAL challenge is exactly as Dave says:

“they still have to sustainably find hundreds of buyers per year with bonafide orders”.

I find it “amusing” (ahem), that Eclipse production of shall we say 600+ per year, will EXACTLY coincide with two things:

1) Complete burnout of US order book by late 2009.

2) The ETIRC plant coming “on-line” in late 2009.

Anyone who thinks this is a coincidence, should perhaps reconsider Carlos’s post (Jan 23, 3:55AM)

“I just found this news from 2005!!!...

"Eclipse Aviation is strongly denying a report in at least two Russian publications that it intends to build airplanes there. The stories...quote the president of Aviastar... Despite the matter-of-fact nature of the stories and the widespread use of attributed quotes, Eclipse claims there's not a shred of truth to the reports.


Eclipse spokesman Andrew Broom told AVweb.


Niner Zulu said...

What amazes me is that anyone still believes the "Eclipse" business model is sustainable.

Even if Eclipse could produce it's "2700 orders" over the next 5 years, it would still need regular 3 x $100 million cash infusions to keep it going every year.

And where is Eclipse going to find 500 buyers per year for a $1.8 million jet?

The company needs to rethink the model if they are going to survive.

bill e. goat said...

Maybe there's a reason Broom is leaving Eclipse, and leaving it now.

I've always figured he read what was slid under his door, and did absolutely no content creation himself, other than feel-good, photo-op stuff.

Maybe he, like most of the rest of us- feels there really is a role for personal credibility in business.

Dave said...

You get the feeling he just changed the number in his spreadsheet and, voila, the company is profitable? All he has to do is "simply" double output!

Per Bill Bonner's letter to suppliers earlier in January, Eclipse will only manufacture 455 jets with the 2 per day breakeven point arriving in December. Per Eclipse's own projections, they wouldn't be profitable until 2009.

flyger said...

Plastic_Planes said...

Those 15,000 people aren't just building jets.

No, but most of them are.

And for Eclipse, not all of them are building jets, either. They have people in service centers, in training (unlike Cessna), and doing all the other business stuff.

Stan Blankenship said...


Can you help with some translation on this article?


airshogun said...

While waiting Fred’s translation along with his version of in-depth editorial analysis, here’s the auto translation of Dutch to English by Google

Automatically translated text:
Roel Pieper cashte options without Sec to explain

GHENT - Roel Pieper, the ex-president of L & H itself warrants gecasht considerably, as evidenced by the process L & H. It was the lawyer Francis Vanderhoydonck that the issue brought. Vanderhoydonck is himself accused of insider dealing.

'In September 1999 came Pieper as adviser and consultant at L & H. He received an annual salary of $ 200,000 and received 300,000 warrants with a maturity of 10 years. He got the warrants free, while my client and if they had to pay 81,000 warrants could buy. "

Pieper could as a worker who also had an annual exercise 50,000 options per semester. At the end of April he was exerting all that package. Pieper was exerting "secretly" in the sense that he was no prior notification to the American beurswaakhond Sec and even after sales reported nothing. "

'Even later he was officially driver, but he was already running. So Pieper were looking for at least the grey zone. Pieper is not the only one who cashte ', say the lawyers of Vanderhoydonck.

"Overall sold around 321 persons L & H their options in May 2000. 24% of these people (78 people) exercised between 76% and 100% of the exercisable options. Of those 78, there are 31 that all options exercisable uitgoefend. "

'The argument that the PPS Vanderhoydonck as the only fully cashte, is not only cheesy, it is also contrary to the reality, "says defending Vanderhoydonck

WhyTech said...

"Eclipse seems to be a master at "solving" problems "

They are even better at creating problems!


anonymous avionics engineer said...

If Andy Brrom ever believed in personal credibility he would have left Eclipse years ago. As far as I am concerned, he and people like him who parrot the 'company line' are one of the biggest problems at Eclipse.

anonymous avionics engineer said...

Where are the spell checkers when you need them?

fred said...

yes stan ...

i 'll do it tomorrow morning , it's quite late here 23H 24 moscow time ..!

bill e. goat said...

Anon Av Eng,
I think spell checking has been outsourced to China. From now on you must use Chinese Checkers.

Dave said...

Also of note is that Eclipse is shelling out more money to Hampson where they are making three payments and also as part of the settlement they're going off the 2003 agreement:
"Under the settlement, Eclipse agreed to make three payments to Hampson by March 14...Hampson will continue to supply tail sections to Eclipse under a 2003 purchase agreement as amended by the settlement, Atkinson said. The purchase agreement expires at the end of 2013."

airshogun said...

Regarding Roel Pieper L&H article in the Dutch paper, following is
the excerpt on L&H from Wikipedia:
“For some time L&H was dogged by rumors of financial impropriety, and in early 1999 the Wall Street Journal, in its 'Heard on the Street' column ran allegations by Goldman Sachs analyst Robert Smithson that earnings had been over-stated. Further investigation by Wall Street Journal staffer Jesse Eisinger led to the revelation on August 8, 2000 of a major financial scandal involving fictitious transactions in Korea and improper accounting methodologies elsewhere. In April 2001 founders Jo Lernout and Pol Hauspie as well as former CEO Gaston Bastiaens were arrested in what is considered one of the largest corporate scandals in history prior to Enron. L&H finally went bankrupt on 25 October 2001 after having struggled for a year.”

The ETIRC/Eclipse deal begins to appear far less credible in light of what surrounds Roel’s business circle.

Niner Zulu said...

There is an E500 for sale on eBay. Starting bid is $1 million or 'Buy It Now' for only $1.795m.

The ad shows what I assume is the spec buyer, standing next to his N71MT which is more likely to become a boat anchor than it is to see a bid of $1,795,000. My suggestion - sell it for whatever he can get rather than chasing the market down because one thing is for sure - the market sure ain't going up except in Ken/TP & Mike Press's dreams!

H.M.E said...


It may be related to this thread (started yesterday) on pprune:

H.M.E said...

Niner Zulu said:
"There is an E500 for sale on eBay. Starting bid is $1 million or 'Buy It Now' for only $1.795m"

This aircraft (serial#69) which was delivered end of october, has been listed on ebay shortly after but did not sell.

Seller relisted it for second time (closing date 15 december) for a buy-it-now price of $1,975,000. Last time I checked on it a few days before dead line in had four bids and was up to 1.5 million and did not meet minimum reserve.

Seller is now listing it for third time for $200,000 less than last month. The buy-it-now price of this already delivered A/C is quite low compared to the similarly configured A/C on eclipse website at $1,914,900 (Q1 2010 delivery). !!

airtaximan said...

from Businessweek Sept 11, 2000... truly remarkable similarities...

"Initially, Bastiaens, an engineer who led the failed Newton project at Apple Computer Inc., flourished at L&H despite frequent run-ins with analysts. Bastiaens bought technological leaders, including Kurzweil Technologies Inc., a speech-recognition company in Wellesley Hills, Mass., and Mendez Translation Group of Brussels. In 1997, a year after he came on board, Bastiaens landed the big one: William H. Gates III. Microsoft invested $45 million in L&H, ending up with an 8% stake. Intel Corp. jumped in in 1999 with $30 million. The early Microsoft investment gave L&H much needed credibility and revenues--Microsoft uses L&H software. ''Speech recognition is one of the key technologies of the future,'' Gates said at a press conference in Brussels--just before anarchists lobbed a cream pie at him.

L&H's vision grew ever more grandiose. The company wouldn't just be a commercial success; it would also create a technological cluster. The Flanders Language Valley Fund, a venture-capital fund, went public in 1997 with offices right next to L&H's headquarters. But it turned out the fund was supporting some of L&H's own customers. Chastened, Lernout and Hauspie severed their ties. ''It was a mistake because people thought we were buying our revenues,'' Lernout admits.

Bastiaens' conflicts with financial analysts escalated this year. In February, Lehman Brothers Inc.'s Brian Skiba issued a bombshell report. It claimed that L&H's growth in the U.S. and Europe was much lower than investors had assumed, and that the company was not coming clean. Bastiaens denied it, but in a conference call, he refused to give a geographic breakdown of sales."

Stan Blankenship said...

From my morning mail:


I write to you as an Eclipse employee so I must keep my name secret. We are all in a state of shock at some of the things that have happened this past week.

The weekly reader is a gift. Still a mess with our windshields. Still a mess with Hampson ....but we have resolved all legal disputes, or so they claim. The biggest shit-storm is with this 'pending' letter from the FAA about our receiving / inspection area. Dumb question: if we are getting written up for all the 'bad' parts that have made it past R/I, then what should be done to inspect or re-inspect aircraft that already have their CofA???? Perhaps some suspect parts made it past 'em and no one bothered to look at the bad parts again. Issue a service bulletin? Ground the E500 fleet? If safety is the prime objective, why wait to see what bad parts cause a catastrophic failure?

Considering our bad luck with our suppliers, it was a total surprise for us to lose our **fourth** Director of Supplier Quality Assurance, Mike Page, in less than 12 months. We have lost Ken Hamby, Bob Matthews (from Lockheed Martin), Roy Knabe, and now Mike. It appears that both Mike Page and Saul Pacheco were fired on Wedneday, 1/23. Saul was the VP of Quality a few months back, demoted to a Director position with Jason Lundstrom as the Senior Director of QA. Yes, that means that QA no longer has any VP-level responsible for quality. No one cared for Glenn Pressley, and thankfully most of the Bell Helicopter/Textron people are gone. But Saul was a decent guy if in a bit over his head.

Maybe you could sort this all out. Because it is really chaos for all us grunts working for this company....

airtaximan said...

One day, you are going to be called to court.

The rediculous remarks about how Eclipse will be providing Q/I for the Russian factory basically sealed the deal for me. They have no clue, don't really care... never will, after all this time.

Visions of the Dunken Donuts commercial... "time to make the donuts...."

Gunner said...

Given the constant revelations about QC problems of parts over these past two years, one has too wonder what it means that the top QC office is entered thru a revolving door.

Logic would indicate one of two reasons:
a) The problems that we've heard are just the tip of the iceberg. Many others are going unnoticed and people are getting fired over it.


b) The QC department is doing an aggressive job of identifying & rejecting defective parts and upper management is not happy about it.

In any case, it really makes me want to own one of these planes.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


This is the same question I asked about the wing bushing question last year, if you have a suspect part or installation you have to go out and ENSURE that there were no escapes.

I have heard of MANDATORY SB's requiring wing demate on aircraft due to SUSPECTED bad bolts.

If receiving quality is an endemic problem at Eclipse (a problem at Eclipse you say? balderdash, they are a disruptive company) and they can not determine with 100% CERTAINTY that there are no substantive escapes, then brace for a MANDATORY SB, possibly another AD, to force the issue.

It is worse than Amateur Hour at the Apollo or the excrutiating humiliation phase on American Idol.

Simon to Vern - "That is quite possibly the worst business plan I have ever been exposed to. I would rather listen to William Hung every day for the rest of my life than call you a CEO. You will not be going to Hollywood."

EclipseOwner387 said...


Sabena is first to offer third-party Eclipse 500 pilot training
By John Croft

Arizona-based Sabena Airline Training Centre (SATC) has received US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) approval to offer Eclipse 500 type rating pilot training at the company’s Falcon Field facility in Mesa, Flight International has learned.

A subsidiary of Belgium-based Sabena Flight Academy, SATC is the first training provider outside of Eclipse Aviation cleared by the FAA to offer the type rating course. Training will begin in March with two to four pilots candidates completing the course every three weeks, according to Kris Van den Bergh, managing director and training chief for the company.

By June, SATC hopes to begin training as many as six to eight pilots every three weeks once a second leased Eclipse 500 comes online. Training will take between 10 and 15 working days to finish, depending on the pilot’s experience, Van den Bergh tells Flight.

SATC currently trains more than 400 pilots per year for European and Indian airline customers at the Mesa facility, using a fleet of 40 single-engine Piper and Diamond training aircraft that accumulate some 75,000 flying hours a year.

The Mesa operation is part of a broader Sabena ab initio program that begins with 12 months of textbook, airline familiarization and simulator training in the company’s facilities in Belgium, followed by six months of flight training in Mesa.

In addition to offering type ratings for Eclipse 500 owners, Sabena will use the very light jets for jet familiarization training as part of its ab initio program

fred said...

sorry for delay ...

ok , a bit of translation ..

Roel Pieper cashte opties zonder autoriteiten in te lichten' =

the Roel Piper's stock-options sell . , without authorisation , in the light

the title is refering to a court-case involving the R.P. in a case of fraud on the sale of stock-options granted to R.P. when he was CEO of L&H

a lawyer from one of the person in the matter (someone who obviously has taken the matter to court for the losses he suffered) said that R.P. for that job got a salary/year of 200.000 US$ and 300.000 warrants for free , but with a 10 years delay ...
(if you prefer a set time when he couldn't sell is stocks)
roel piper was getting an extra 50.000 for each semester

in april he sold all his position , secretly by not asking for permission to do so and not informing the SEC of this action...

so the lawyer claims R.P. did this because he knew the firm (L&H) was facing problems and knew the otion prices were going to go down

sorry for the bad translation , but knowing nothing about the matter it's quite difficult to link things together ...

anyway , it doesn't sounds very good ...!!

bill e. goat said...

In the somewhat unusual role of providing mitigating evidence...

I believe all the incoming parts must have passed an FAA-regulated QA process at the point of manufacture.

So, perhaps the QC hoopla (amongst other hoopla's) at Eclipse is more a process-related problem (paperwork, tracability) rather than defective part problem, per se. Still a valid part of the manufacturing process though.

Still, not a "jolly good show" to go through QC Veep's like that though.

I will also point out- still no (replacement, or re-replacement, or re-re-re... well, you get the picture:) Veep of Engineering either.

fred said...

o , so after some researchs ...

L&H was a firm devoted to speech recognition...

R.P. was at the head ...some journalists from WallStreetJournal made some revelation about irregularities on an asian branch of the firm , false orders , false accountancy , whatever false you can think of it ...

the said article is about the court-case where not enough evidence have been found against R.P. ...

but it is quite easy to make a parallel with EAC = orders to remain in the shadow , accountancy remaining quite dark , etc ...etc.. etc...

so the new controlling guy in EAC doesn't seems to be on his first run of **** , doesn't sounds good at all !!!

FlightCenter said...

Eclipse Aviation Announces Partnership with Tesla Motors

January 25, 2008 — ALBUQUERQUE, NM — Eclipse Aviation, manufacturer of the world’s first very light jet (VLJ), today announced that it has formed a partnership with Tesla Motors, the maker of the first high-performance all-electric sports car. Eclipse and Tesla today announced a purchase program to allow existing and new customers the ability to buy an Eclipse 500 and a Tesla Roadster as a package.

“The similarities between the two companies are astonishing,” said Vern Raburn, president and CEO of Eclipse Aviation. “The Tesla Roadster and the Eclipse 500 are the most efficient, highest performance vehicles in their categories, plus they are both the greenest vehicles in their markets.”

Eclipse and Tesla today announced a one-of-a-kind opportunity to save significant money on an Eclipse 500 purchase while also supporting Eclipse and Tesla Motors.

Eclipse and Tesla are offering an opportunity to purchase both a Tesla Roadster and an Eclipse 500 aircraft for the current Eclipse 500 Standard Aircraft Price of $1,595,000 USD. This is a savings of $98,000 and results in an Eclipse 500 customer receiving a Tesla Roadster at no charge. The package price will be fixed in exchange for an initial deposit of $795,000.

This offer is also valid for current Eclipse depositors that have not yet assigned and delivered an Eclipse 500 Aircraft Purchase Agreement or remitted the progress payment due six months before delivery. Eclipse Aviation reserves the right to discontinue this offer at any time.

Eclipse and Tesla were both founded and funded by Silicon Valley executives dedicated to bringing truly disruptive technologies with unmatched value propositions to the automotive and aviation world.

“We’ve been very impressed with Eclipse’s ability to overcome obstacles, raise money and develop a loyal customer base while building a 5 year order backlog,” said Ze’ev Drori, CEO of Tesla Motors. “We believe our partnership with Eclipse will provide us with the funding sources and the dedicated customer base willing to work through the inevitable initial issues required to deliver truly disruptive technology products.”

In a separate announcement, DayJet CEO Ed Iacobucci, disclosed plans to take initial delivery of 14 Tesla Roadsters and position 2 Tesla Roadsters at each DayPort. The Tesla Roadsters will be made available to DayJet’s premium customers based on availability.

About Tesla Motors

Tesla Motors has received all regulatory approvals to import the first production Tesla Roadster (“P1”) for sale. P1 will arrive at Tesla Motors headquarters next week for delivery to customer Elon Musk, Chairman of Tesla Motors.

As communicated previously, early production units will be equipped with an interim transmission that limits acceleration to 5.7 seconds from 0 to 60 mph. Tesla Motors engineers have designed a permanent solution for mass production that supports the original specification of 0 to 60 mph in 4 seconds.

The planned solution has some very positive benefits for Tesla customers. Instead of the previously planned complex 2-speed transmission design, Tesla will achieve the original performance goals with a simpler one-speed unit. The existing motor will be modified to have advanced cooling capabilities to handle the additional power. The planned solution reduces program risk, provides better efficiency, lower weight, equal or better range, better thermal performance and quicker quarter mile acceleration due to the elimination of the need to shift gears.

Early production will proceed at a limited rate of 50 vehicles in Q1 2008 and then ramp up to full production with 600 vehicles produced during the remainder of the year after the permanent powertrain solution is production ready.

The upgrade from the interim solution to the higher power, permanent solution will be provided to our customers free of charge when available later this year.

About Eclipse
Eclipse Aviation is the world's leading very light jet (VLJ) manufacturer, producing innovative, affordable jets that are revolutionizing air transportation.

mouse said...

There is effectively NO QA process at Eclipse, and there never has been.

All of the QA; receiving, in-process, airworthiness, Etc. is performed by people who are not experienced, or for the most part have never been closer to an airowrthy airplane than from the jetbridge at ABQ.

There are/were some very highly qualified members, however they were only allowed to inspect to the requirements spelled out on the part drawings.

The drawings were created by inexperienced (book-dumb) kids (mostly)with no practical or real knowledge.

The entire process is further messed up because Eclipse has pushed all of the QA/QC process down to the vendor. The vendor only inspects what is on the drawing... The drawings for most parts suck at best... The motivation to fail a part is not too high when the same vendor who built it, checks it.

In the case of Hampson, they can build a great part for Boeing or Airbus because they have a great drawing and system. Likewise they build a crap tail for Eclipse because this is what the drawing demands.

Why the FAA has not taken action 5 or 6 years ago, much less 5 or 6 minutes ago is shocking.

Time hides all wounds... until gangrene sets in...

mouse said...

The fact is, due to the piss poor QA system and drawings, the FAA has issued a TC without ever (as in NEVER) flying a confomring article.

The drawings were all superceded on the tested aircraft's tail sections (by Hampson) and were never caught until after TC was issued. Hampson was building to old rev. drawings. Eclipses fix was to roll back the rev levels and scrap the heavier skinned fuselage drawings.

Keep your wings topped off on the ground or live with oil can wrinkles in the hangar.

Thanks to Eclipse the Collier has become a joke...

Wish I had the movie rights to this story. Talk about a disaster... Makes Airport, Towering Inferno, The Poseidon Adventure and Titanic look like The Sound of Music.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

The following preview has been rated R by the Russian Federation of Public/Private Investments.

Scene fades in from black to a young man joining a party, he is leaving soon for Russia. Friends are giving brief video wishes for his journey.

Suddenly there is a commotion outside, a loud roar, and a giant green chile lands on a vodka bottle the street.

NM politicians throw money at the monster to no avail, one is overheard to say 'whatever it is, it's winning.'

Scene fades to black.


'Something has found your money.'

Black Tulip said...


"Eclipse Aviation Announces Partnership with Tesla Motors"

Nice work. This makes good sense from a marketing viewpoint. Crackerjacks sold well on the basis that every buyer would find a prize at the bottom of the box. Eclipse can now make a similar claim.

It also brings to mind the two stone theory of joint ventures - if one stone will not float, tie another stone to it. See if two stones will float.

bill e. goat said...


It's so plausible it makes me feel ill.

Niner Zulu said...

Off topic - I was talking to my Djet rep today & he said factory is expecting to deliver 25 Djets this year, down from the 65 or so that they were hoping for. Djet is running a little behind, somewhere between 2-5 months or so it appears.

Also, I had the opportunity to fly in a DA42 sim today - my first real chance to work with the G1000 panel. The G1000 is very impressive - I think Cessna made a good choice using it in the Mustang and I believe Eclipse would have been much better off today had they also used the G1000 and other mainstream avionics in their few hundred jets, and developed Avio NG in the background for future models.

Gunner said...

If you recall, Vern agreed with you regarding the Garmin suite just before he threw Avidyne under the bus. The quote commenced with, "If I had it to do over again....."

He then promptly did it "over again" by introducing the new and improved AVIOng that he'd been working on for months prior to announcing that Garmin would have been his choice, "if he had it to do over again".

Dizzying, I know.

mouse said...

Garmin turned Vern down...

The Phenom is also a G1000 airplane.

Niner Zulu said...

Gunner, you know if Mike Press, Ken/TP and the other diehards would have put a little pressure on Eclipse, Vern might have went with the G1000. It could have made the difference between Eclipse's survival (barely) and a train wreck, which appears to be where they are headed.

It is possible that free pass given to Eclipse by the diehards may well be the reason that this company doesn't survive.

I was thinking about what I'd do different if I were Vern, and here are a few things I came up with:
1. make FIKI my priority. Get it done and NOW.
2. try to get the G1000 and some mainstream avionics certified in the Eclipse concurrent with AvioNG
3. raise the prices wherever I could. Start with the options list that isn't part of the contract. Yes, this will mean sticking it to deposit holders again. But it is necessary for the company's survival. Eclipse MUST make money. No more subsidizing jets for the wealthy just to make the "value" point.
4. start redesigning the plane, this time correctly i.e. no tip tanks. Your choice of G1000 or AvioNG. Make the new version available to existing position holders as an "upgrade" at a higher price. Similar to what Piper did with the Meridian - everyone wants the new one, no one wants the old one.
5. No more badmouthing the competition. Time to raise the bar on the rhetoric. Most of Eclipse's criticism has been directed towards Cessna. Why? Hell if I know because most of us learned to fly in Cessnas. Sure they are not perfect. But some of them are darn close - i.e. the C185 is one of the best bush planes ever made and their resale value proves it, the C195 is one of the most beautiful, the Caravan, the Citation 3, the Citation X. These, I believe, are fantastic airplanes in their class. So I think Cessna deserves better than a tongue lashing every time Eclipse issues a press release.


airshogun said...

With Vern’s unique connection to Tesla, (Dottie Hall, Vern’s ex-wife went to work for TM after leaving Vern and Eclipse as reported before in this blog) the press release had all the verisimilitudes needed to avert any suspicion, and I was almost taken till I got to read the next two respective posts by BT and BEG. Blended with the factual information on production, delivery schedule, vehicle performance and whole nine yards (an American expression, I believe.) coinciding with Tesla’s own made the press release all the more convincing. Nice work indeed FC!

My admiration to you all for those bloggers here who exhibit an excellent talent in their English writing skills.

Aside from the subject matter discussion on the Eclipse 500, there’s so much useful to learn from here on this blog. By far this is the best learning ground to study the American English for those of us whose native language is not English.


Shane Price said...


In so many way, English is well adapted to the art of Satire.

Typically, the author taks a germ of truth, distorts it by layers of promises, then makes the result another statement of fact, and so on, and on, and...

Bit like what The Great Raburn does at Eclipse, if you think about it.


Black Tulip said...

Airshogun-san and Shane,

English is also a marvelous language because of the Double Entendre -

Did you hear about the cannibal that passed his uncle in the forest?

airtaximan said...

“The root of all superstition is
that men observe when a thing
hits but not when it misses.”
-- Francis Bacon

I recall adamant conclusion that the Hampson issue was completely paid and settled in the Fall... just because of a cryptic PR by Eclipse referring to paying them...

Someone's wishful conclusion was that the suit was over... not even close, according to the recent PR admitting payments and a resolution, now... months and months later. Makes me think the new deposit money from the midnight special was required to "settle"... or at least show the money is there, instead of Pieper's new money. No one likes throwing new money at old lawsuits.

Anyhow, I believe everything about this product and program requires the kind of “mis-interpolation” of the statements by Eclipse. The Hampson issue is another testament to the critics, who have been very right. Time tells the real story.

Relevance: more deposits required led to the PR whereby Hampson’s law suit could be dismissed as an issue. More deposits were placed… how much goes to Hampson?

Like the claim the Hampson suit was settled and over last fall... wishful thinking does not make it so. It only makes people more inclined to pony up deposit money, under false pretenses.

bill e. goat said...

I don't kknow about BT, but I checked the websites of both Eclipse and Telsa, and STILL wasn't sure...Good thing I didn't know the details you recounted (“Dottie Hall, Vern’s ex-wife went to work for TM after leaving Vern and Eclipse as reported before in this blog”).

Mr. FC! It's always the matter-of-fact types that just snap... (I think Vern just found an able replacement for Broom :)

FlightCenter said...


Thank you for the kind words on the bedrieglijk press release.

Wild goats couldn't drag me to ABQ...


Domo go-shinsetsu ni. For someone whose native language is not English, one would never know it from your writing. There aren't many native English speakers who could use the word "verisimilitudes" correctly in a sentence.

One might suspect that you had studied English at Oxford or Cambridge perhaps...

airshogun said...

Shane said,

In so many way, English is well adapted to the art of Satire.

Typically, the author taks a germ of truth, distorts it by layers of promises, then makes the result another statement of fact, and so on, and on, and...

Bit like what The Great Raburn does at Eclipse, if you think about it.

When I follow your thinking path, I come to arrive at the same conclusion as yours whether or not done in English.

BT said

Did you hear about the cannibal that passed his uncle in the forest?

Is this what you’re referring to?

Two cannibals just finished a big meal and one turns to the other while rubbing his stomach with his fist and say, "You know, I just ate my mother-in-law, and she still doesn't agree with me!"

And am I correct to assume your point of bringing this up to present double entendre nature of English language?

Learning something new everyday, thanks BT.

FT said
One might suspect that you had studied English at Oxford or Cambridge perhaps...

I wish, but thanks for the compliment.
My English learning is mostly self-taught and self-learning through the courses provided by university of real world street. I am currently working toward getting a PhD in English and MBA from the same university at my own laissez-faire pace. Oh yes, this blog reading has been designated as a mandatory requirement for the both courses at the university.


John said...

Week 17 Dayjet utilization
Includes training loops out of KGNV--low number craft are mostly doing loops out of KGNV. Some planes did not fly this week

DJS145 … 18 … 19.0
DJS160 … 21 … 17.0
DJS148 … 15 … 11.3
DJS150 … 10 … 9.6
DJS156 … 11 … 8.9
DJS163 … 8 … 8.2
DJS146 … 12 … 7.6
DJS142 … 8 … 7.2
DJS161 … 5 … 6.6
DJS116 … 8 … 6.2
DJS115 … 7 … 6.1
DJS141 … 6 … 5.7
DJS126 … 7 … 5.2
DJS153 … 7 … 4.6
DJS158 … 6 … 4.2
DJS152 … 5 … 3.7
DJS131 … 3 … 3.6
DJS139 … 4 … 3.2
DJS135 … 4 … 2.5
DJS132 … 3 … 2.3
DJS147 … 4 … 1.9
DJS136 … 2 … 1.4
DJS130 … 1 … 0.3
TOTAL … 175 … 146.35

Turboprop_pilot said...


I wonder why it's so slow- there seems to be plenty of bad news, as always. Can you start a new thread?

When I go to Florida to retrieve my plane, it would be fun to fly on Dayjet- are there a couple more critics who'd like to share a plane?

Turboprop Pilot

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